Dear Cred:
You have no clue. Any young man who runs 9:13 in the Steeple in high school would have MORE than 20 scholarship offers if he had contacted those schools. They might not have been large offers, but 9:13 as a high school senior is very good. Just look at conference meet results. If I am not mistaken 9:05 or so would qualify in our east region for the ncaa first-round competition.
small time college coach wrote:
Dear Cred:
You have no clue. Any young man who runs 9:13 in the Steeple in high school would have MORE than 20 scholarship offers if he had contacted those schools. They might not have been large offers, but 9:13 as a high school senior is very good. Just look at conference meet results. If I am not mistaken 9:05 or so would qualify in our east region for the ncaa first-round competition.
The 9:13 was his 3200m time (sans the steeples)
One step up wrote:
( `o`) wrote:
I'm 38. I don't have a soft 20 year old. However, when my 8 and 4 year olds are in college, they won't be soft like these recent cases of kids.
I'm a generation older than you. You're soft and your kids will be softer. You referring to anyone as soft is laughable.
Don't know you, can't verify. But to speak for myself I'm not a gigantic pile of blubbering, crying p*ussies like many of the current 20-30 year olds are (and that population is increasing, BTW). That's good enough for me. My kids at the very least will not be taught to covet victimhood and that busting their asses to get results is more valuable than running off and tattling over nothing.
Can wrote:
small time college coach wrote:
Dear Cred:
You have no clue. Any young man who runs 9:13 in the Steeple in high school would have MORE than 20 scholarship offers if he had contacted those schools. They might not have been large offers, but 9:13 as a high school senior is very good. Just look at conference meet results. If I am not mistaken 9:05 or so would qualify in our east region for the ncaa first-round competition.
The 9:13 was his 3200m time (sans the steeples)
What are "steeples" in this context?
Cred wrote:
No credibility when a 9:13 runner claims to have received 20 scholarship offers.
Which has nothing to do with the coach assaulting him.
Probably the coach and the bullies are gay.
Claire Fakation wrote:
GoCatz wrote:
Not buying it. Coach “grabs” wrists. “Throws” him down. Bloody nose. Conveniently “feints.”
This is the part I had a hard time understanding in the article.
Figures a 115 lb. weakling would react like this. Nose bleed. Lol
More likely .. wrote:
Probably the coach and the bullies are gay.
Aren't we all, to some extent?
Can wrote:
small time college coach wrote:
Dear Cred:
You have no clue. Any young man who runs 9:13 in the Steeple in high school would have MORE than 20 scholarship offers if he had contacted those schools. They might not have been large offers, but 9:13 as a high school senior is very good. Just look at conference meet results. If I am not mistaken 9:05 or so would qualify in our east region for the ncaa first-round competition.
The 9:13 was his 3200m time (sans the steeples)
He ran 9:15 in the steeplechase. With his performances at NBON and USATF Junior nationals, literally any college coach would offer him a scholarship. Coaches stink at teaching people how to steeplechase, they'll pay big money for one of the best coming out of high school.
It took 9:03 in the weaker Eastern region. This kid hasn’t come close to that time. You guys don’t seem to understand that the slow schools and conferences are underfunded. That aren’t paying more for slower guys. The market dictates the price. This kid is getting books which is more than he deserves. He had like 3 offers of books or a few thousand bucks. He is full of it.
No offer joe wrote:
It took 9:03 in the weaker Eastern region. This kid hasn’t come close to that time. You guys don’t seem to understand that the slow schools and conferences are underfunded. That aren’t paying more for slower guys. The market dictates the price. This kid is getting books which is more than he deserves. He had like 3 offers of books or a few thousand bucks. He is full of it.
spoken like a kid who never broke 10 in the 3200. NY steeplechasers get hundreds of letters from coaches in the mail, that's not an exaggeration.
If your team needs a steeplechaser, would you rather recruit a kid who has already run 9:15 in the steeplechase, or a 5'8 uncoordinated, inflexible kid who has run 8:59 in the 3200 in a perfectly rabbited race?
No offer joe wrote:
It took 9:03 in the weaker Eastern region. This kid hasn’t come close to that time. You guys don’t seem to understand that the slow schools and conferences are underfunded. That aren’t paying more for slower guys. The market dictates the price. This kid is getting books which is more than he deserves. He had like 3 offers of books or a few thousand bucks. He is full of it.
Supply and demand, dude, did you fail your economics class? Demand is 100% as any school in the country would love to have one of the best steeplechasers in the country. Supply is extremely small in the steeplechase as very few states even offer it. That raises the price.
econ failure wrote:
No offer joe wrote:
It took 9:03 in the weaker Eastern region. This kid hasn’t come close to that time. You guys don’t seem to understand that the slow schools and conferences are underfunded. That aren’t paying more for slower guys. The market dictates the price. This kid is getting books which is more than he deserves. He had like 3 offers of books or a few thousand bucks. He is full of it.
Supply and demand, dude, did you fail your economics class? Demand is 100% as any school in the country would love to have one of the best steeplechasers in the country. Supply is extremely small in the steeplechase as very few states even offer it. That raises the price.
I really doubt if coaches even recruit Steeplechasers. They just grab a guy on the team who is pretty good at cross (strong runner)but not really a track guy and turn him into a steeplechaser.
track chick wrote:
I haven't read all of these pages, I just read the first article. But having read that, I believe what he (the athlete) says. Bullying is rife in certain areas and universities certainly don't have the best record for doing anything other than looking the other way. I could entirely see this playing out as stated and claiming someone is suicidal with zero proof - even the hospital doctor and psychologist found no evidence of that, which is just unlikely if someone is in a situation where they would be that distraught (I mean unlikely he would be able to cover it under that kind of high stress circumstance).
Is he gay? Not that it matters, but I just wonder if that could be the root of this and the teammates were stupidly not comfortable with it. I think one thing a significant number of people don't realise is just how much hiding there can be within a university - or any - setting if you're not straight. And I hate to say it but for some reason it's harder within sports (especially team sports) than other areas. Take a day and see how many times you make statements that reveal your sexuality - you mention your boyfriend/girlfriend, your ex, something you did, someone you met, somewhere you went - anything like that. Then try and erase all of those statements. It's living a lie. I could be really far from the mark with this and maybe I am, but it just sounds like something more was going on, possibly. I don't know.
This is one of the most interesting posts in this thread. I am hoping my former team and university is more progressive then this. I wonder where James Li is on all this ?
First and foremost the quality of this athlete is irrelevant to the legal question of whether he was 1)bullied by teammates 2)whether this bullying was organized/institutional 3)whether he was assaulted by the head coach (this is a given - the boy was touched, violently enough to be thrown to the ground) 4)whether the coach knew of the bullying, encouraged it or even directed it 5)whether the boy is in a protected class under Federal and State Law. Discovery will flesh these facts out. His mental state has no bearing on the assault claim, (unless shown that he was delusional/hallucinating) and no "self-defense" allegation has been offered to describe/excuse the coach's offensive contact. The University seems to be alleging a pattern of irregular behavior, and if this is so, their duty of care would be higher. (You hear an athlete under your care is suicidal - you bring him in to the office to dress him down and revoke his scholarship? You end up grabbing him - he ends up on the floor...sent to the hospital?) Something appears really wrong. Were parents contacted by the school or coach at all along the way?
As for whether he was talented and a worthy recruit to a PAC12 school - To assert that he is not is either ignorance or willful misrepresentation. His best time as a high schooler would have been very close to scoring in the PAC12 championships recently. Coaches recruit track athletes with the goal of scoring in League Championships. Schools like USC may recruit sprinter-heavy, but no one in the PAC 12 is sending out "books only" meatballs in school colors. No school is going to able to recruit an All-American steeper with a paltry offer. Assuming that this athlete's performances improved over 4 years, he would have been projected to run in NCAA regionals and likely finals with good racing luck. Regional times are near impossible to meaningfully compare because they do not account for critical variable of weather (45 degrees wind and rain vs. 75 degrees sunny zero humidity). Nor do these times account for the difference between the "altitude schools" and the rest of the valley runners.
As far as steeplers - they are the rarest breed of distance runners. Tens of thousands of kids will run fast. Out of that group perhaps two will be able to maintain that same speed while clearing 28 36" non-collapsible barriers. Not to mention the water jump where the kids will have their heads higher than Zion Williams on a dunk, while traveling 15' over water - with other athletes colliding with them. Good steeplers possess tremendous strength, balance and agility rarely found in pure distance runners. They must also possess the mentality of athletes playing collision sports like football. This is why college steeplers are literally scouted and recruited from every continent except Antartica. College coaches love NY steeplers because they are proven at 3K. No other state runs 3K, and there are scores of great 2K steeplers who fail at the longer distance. Nobody who knows anything about HS/College running would denigrate a performance of a top NY distance runner. The top 5 or 6 steeplers in NY always get recruited to top track programs across the nation. They have their pick from abundant choices.
As far as the quality and character of this particular athlete - He ran his fastest HS time in 105 degree heat in Sacramento (US Junior Nats - 3rd place). He became HS All-American after a crash in the water pit in 95 degrees in humid Greensboro. As an athlete he is tough as nails and certainly not a quitter at all.
Something is very wrong here. We await details. But please don't be so stupid as to jump to conclusions, especially on irrelevant topics and with obviously limited or no knowledge about this case in particular, the applicable legal standards, college track and field, and recruiting.
JudgeRoyBean wrote:
First and foremost the quality of this athlete is irrelevant to the legal question of whether he was 1)bullied by teammates 2)whether this bullying was organized/institutional 3)whether he was assaulted by the head coach (this is a given - the boy was touched, violently enough to be thrown to the ground) 4)whether the coach knew of the bullying, encouraged it or even directed it 5)whether the boy is in a protected class under Federal and State Law. Discovery will flesh these facts out. His mental state has no bearing on the assault claim, (unless shown that he was delusional/hallucinating) and no "self-defense" allegation has been offered to describe/excuse the coach's offensive contact. The University seems to be alleging a pattern of irregular behavior, and if this is so, their duty of care would be higher. (You hear an athlete under your care is suicidal - you bring him in to the office to dress him down and revoke his scholarship? You end up grabbing him - he ends up on the floor...sent to the hospital?) Something appears really wrong. Were parents contacted by the school or coach at all along the way?
As for whether he was talented and a worthy recruit to a PAC12 school - To assert that he is not is either ignorance or willful misrepresentation. His best time as a high schooler would have been very close to scoring in the PAC12 championships recently. Coaches recruit track athletes with the goal of scoring in League Championships. Schools like USC may recruit sprinter-heavy, but no one in the PAC 12 is sending out "books only" meatballs in school colors. No school is going to able to recruit an All-American steeper with a paltry offer. Assuming that this athlete's performances improved over 4 years, he would have been projected to run in NCAA regionals and likely finals with good racing luck. Regional times are near impossible to meaningfully compare because they do not account for critical variable of weather (45 degrees wind and rain vs. 75 degrees sunny zero humidity). Nor do these times account for the difference between the "altitude schools" and the rest of the valley runners.
As far as steeplers - they are the rarest breed of distance runners. Tens of thousands of kids will run fast. Out of that group perhaps two will be able to maintain that same speed while clearing 28 36" non-collapsible barriers. Not to mention the water jump where the kids will have their heads higher than Zion Williams on a dunk, while traveling 15' over water - with other athletes colliding with them. Good steeplers possess tremendous strength, balance and agility rarely found in pure distance runners. They must also possess the mentality of athletes playing collision sports like football. This is why college steeplers are literally scouted and recruited from every continent except Antartica. College coaches love NY steeplers because they are proven at 3K. No other state runs 3K, and there are scores of great 2K steeplers who fail at the longer distance. Nobody who knows anything about HS/College running would denigrate a performance of a top NY distance runner. The top 5 or 6 steeplers in NY always get recruited to top track programs across the nation. They have their pick from abundant choices.
As far as the quality and character of this particular athlete - He ran his fastest HS time in 105 degree heat in Sacramento (US Junior Nats - 3rd place). He became HS All-American after a crash in the water pit in 95 degrees in humid Greensboro. As an athlete he is tough as nails and certainly not a quitter at all.
Something is very wrong here. We await details. But please don't be so stupid as to jump to conclusions, especially on irrelevant topics and with obviously limited or no knowledge about this case in particular, the applicable legal standards, college track and field, and recruiting.
Step away from the beer and hold your hands where we can see them.
Supply and demand says that he isn’t getting more than books because he isn’t even in the top 100. Coaches have at most 12.6 scholarships so they can’t afford to waste any on somebody who isn’t scoring at conference or going to nationals. His ability is also relevant because he is claiming to have received a bunch of scholarships in order to increase the damages. His credibility is also called into question due to the exaggerations. He has no real damages because he can try to walk on somewhere else but good luck with that with the crappy times and baggage.
While I have no desire to get into a discussion about what did/did not happen to this young man I will chime in on his athletic ability. ANY high school boy that runs a 9:15 3000m Steeplechase will have plenty of scholarship offers, and not just book offers. It would be assumed that a young man who runs 9:15 in HS could improve with better competition and improved coaching to around 9:00. And 9:00 gets into the NCAA First-Round 3/4ths of the time. And 9:15 scores in many, many conferences. So he is absolutely talented enough to compete in any conference in the country.
No. Simply, no. That’s why you aren’t a D1 coach. 12 scholarships are just enough to pay the scoring members of the team. If every op tential kid got one, you would need a bunch more. You would have lost a bunch on this kid because his college PR is 9:32. That’s a D3 time. That’s why you can’t pay for potential, only performance. Any decent D1 team will have a bunch of 8:15 3k guys that can turn into 8:50 steeplers. I don’t need a 9:15 guy who has been focusing on steeple and therefore has little upside. This kid is full of it.
STW wrote:
literally 4th wrote:
he was literally 4th in the nation in the steeplechase:
Second fastest in nation at 9:15
Carlos Villarreal one of the culprits.
Villareal is known as somewhat of a punk. Who did they hire to take tests for him? No troll. People in the know say he's a jughead.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Rest in Peace Adrian Lehmann - 2:11 Swiss marathoner. Dies of heart attack.
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
I think Letesenbet Gidey might be trying to break 14 this Saturday
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!