Road Racing and Traininf Thread Week Ending 3-10-19

BHViking wrote:

At any rate, 2 runs a week at an upper range of 83% for 10 miles each is quite comfortable for me right now. My run this morning, there was no slow down at all but I started at the bottom of the range and my HR had drifted slowly up the whole time and settled right at 83% for miles 7-10 with no slow down. Perhaps that's what he meant? What's confusing to me is, even on my easy runs, my HR drifts up SOME over the course of the run and clearly I'm no where near LT.

This absolutely sounds right. Cardiac drift is inevitable. Your body is losing fluid, fuel, and most often also increasing temperature.

I'm not sure what kind of "protocol" you use on your runs and with your measurements. For example, do you warm up (get the HR up) before you go out on the run? Do you start slow and "warm into" the run? Do you try to get your heart into the zone as fast as you can? Do you begin at an estimated pace and wait for your HR to "catch up?" I can imagine these different protocols are going to reveal a different HR "drift."

As a hypothetical, on a high-aerobic day, a guy goes out the door and tries to get his HR up to 83% as fast as he can and then hold it there. I imagine he'll see a big difference in pace-to-HR between between mile 1 and mile 10. Same guy does 2 miles at 70% and spends a mile bumping up to 83%... I imagine the pace at the first 83% mile and the last one is closer.

The fact that miles 7-10 are rock solid I believe is what you are looking for. Your body is warmed up and at the desired level of effort and you've been out there long enough to start to tire... but even at that, you're steady... yeah, that's a really good sign! Good work!

A question: Is your pace still improving at that 83%? That's the second part of the equation. It's not just "Is your HR/pace steady?" but also "Is that steady pace still improving without working harder?" If the answer is "Yes," my reading of the Hadd training is that you would just stay there until you're not making any more gains... but as I've mentioned before, you may have races etc. on the sched or other considerations that you're working with.

I think you're doing great. I like a runner who is willing to give a plan a fair shake, give it an honest and thorough effort, and you're certainly doing that. In my book, you're a great role model!

darkwave, yes I'll be at Shamrock but only on Friday-Saturday. Going for a fast age group/age grade time. Good luck in the half and let me know if you'll be around on Saturday.

fastermiles, yeah probably we all have our own version of what pick ups mean. Usually, I call pick ups as 10-20 second fast paced bursts (from 5K to mile pace usually), and somewhat randomly strewn into the run, about 1-3 minutes apart. Strides are a little more orderly and those are about the same duration but often at a soccer field or track infield and I do approximately 80 - 100 meters. Strides may or may not be part of the warm up for a work out. Pick ups are on otherwise easy days.

pewow - good to see that you're also still out skiing. I' pretty sure next winter I'll plan on a break from running training to focus on some skiing. Will still run but closer to 50:50 over a couple months.

runrincerepeat wrote:

As far as food ..10 pieces of whole fruit per day (or 3 lbs of whole cut fruit/berries) Is your friend.

Those of us who have actually run a full ‘thon know that 10 pieces of fruit ain’t enough. You have to turn it up to at least 11...

Some further comments...

Still Improving: Wow, we're like twins on that Q1... I GAPped 6:46 and 6:51 per mile for the T segments... and I also slashed the previous Q2 in half. Looking forward to seeing you at some point in Boston.

Cocoon: Another very strong long run!

WHSrunner: Nice to meet you!

Urban: Really great work, and I agree about the strange feeling of accountability this group fosters in me. I owe this thread a lot.

LancRunner: Dang, you've got a lot on your dance card, but you do a really great job fitting it all in. Respect!

Looks like there will be fair amount of racing around St. Patty's Day. Don't forget to wear green for that extra dose of good luck!

RRR - Good luck with your 15k.

Coyote and darkwave - Good luck at Shamrock this weekend. I have a friend headed there too in his quest for a sub 3 marathon.

Stone - Good luck with your upcoming 5k.

sub 6:00 - Good luck with your 4miler. Don't forget to register.

NYCHalf - Good luck with your half. I'm unfamiliar with both of those shoes, but race in whichever you feel is the most comfortable or pick the lighter of the two. Are you not comfortable not running with a pace group? I know you are a novice, but why not race what you brought to race day which could be on either side of 6:20. Probably not the advice you were looking for and this probably reflects my tendency to just wing it at times.

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GFMAH - Oddly that statement about racing at 10mi race effort was there for clarity. I do see the humor though. If you look at sub 6:00's race calendar. It is pretty full leading up to Boston with a 10miler as a MP training run and I guess there has been some discussion about using HMs as a MP training runs in other threads. So that is why I had to add the extra note about race effort. Hope your hip recovers soon.

Coach Jeff - Yeah, we should definitely try to meet up at Boston. This will be a bit of a vacation for me so I'll be there Thurs. - Thurs. We'll see who else we can meet up with from the rest of the Boston contingent. At a minimum, it shouldn't be too hard to find and harass RRR at the expo.

Guy Broman - What's your concern with food? Do you think you would like to drop some weight or are you concerned with losing too much when increasing the training load? At a minimum be sure to eat healthy and get in what your body needs to help you recover between workouts. I definitely indulge when under a heavy training load with no guilt. My Saturdays usually consist of a long run that usually incorporates a workout within the long run. This leaves me quite hungry. My wife knows my routine now. After the long run I am usually craving a steak or big hamburger and so the usual question from my wife is "Where are we going out to eat today?" Oddly, I do cook up a sizable breakfast right after my long run but I am just too lazy to fix up a big meal later in the day. My biggest concern is being able to reduce portion size when I am not training and not put on excess weight from eating too much.

As always, in awe of y'all big mileage people up top there.

Viking: Love the boozy triple. All that heart rate stuff is too much for me right now, but serves as a great example/ reminder to work calmly and learn about yourself during base. Bravo on the patience.

darkwave: Love all the x-training. I am slowly coming around to yoga.

NYC: I vote for starting in a group that you know you can hang with. You can always put the hammer down a little later, and the pack should at least pull you through a few miles with little effort.

rrr, Still Improving, and others: Just generally curious about fueling and how to improve it moving forward. I had already turned the fruit and vegetable intake up to 11 as suggested, as this lets me gorge on sausage gravy biscuits and other midwest garbage food with less guilt. Last time I was really running (10+ years ago) it was a stuggle to maintain weight. True story: in high school a doctor advised me to "just put cheese on everything."

Thanks Coach Jeff ROC!

These are all awesome questions you are asking that I've been struggling with.

For a warmup, I walk for a few minutes then get right into it. I don't get the HR up before I start. Yes, I've gone out and gotten up to 83% as fast as possible and that resulted in a terrible workout. I quit that as the last 5 miles were over 7:00 pace to stay down in the zone. I have never started these extremely slow but I have started them slower than the lower end of the range over the course of the first 10 minutes.

Most recently, I have started at an estimated pace and let the HR "catch up". This was what I did in the workout on Monday I had alluded to where miles 7-10 were solidly at 83%. Looking back at this workout more closely, I didn't actually hit the bottom of zone (80 - 83%) until about the end of Mile 5 and was averaging about a 6:49 pace. I actually sped up to the low 6:40's for the last 5 miles at which point my HR increased to the 82-83% range, never going over. My average HR for the whole 10 mile run was 80% and quite frankly didn't feel that challenging at all for a "workout". I think I ran this too conservatively even for Hadd's method. Maybe for Thursday's "workout", I'll try and get to the bottom of the range (80%) in the first few minutes and see how long it takes to drift up to the top of the zone (83%). I really don't know if that's how this method is supposed to be done to stay true to it! Maybe it's as simple as that?

I really am trying to give this an honest and thorough effort. Graduating up to the next zone (83% - 86%) is a tricky one to estimate. I doubt it would hurt to do one at that effort to see how it goes.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

A question: Is your pace still improving at that 83%? That's the second part of the equation. It's not just "Is your HR/pace steady?" but also "Is that steady pace still improving without working harder?" If the answer is "Yes," my reading of the Hadd training is that you would just stay there until you're not making any more gains... but as I've mentioned before, you may have races etc. on the sched or other considerations that you're working with.

I think you're doing great. I like a runner who is willing to give a plan a fair shake, give it an honest and thorough effort, and you're certainly doing that. In my book, you're a great role model!

Oops! Forgot to answer this. I don't think my pace is really improving at 83% much. It's basically been somewhere in the 6:40's the whole time. I do have a marathon 6.5 weeks out. So maybe now is a pretty good time to try a higher zone, at least once a week. No idea. I know Hadd let "Joe" race a few times and I've done no races whatsoever.

A few comments before the lunch run.

RRR - Welcome back. Good wishes for the 15K.

JQ - Awesome week. Hope that you can hit your goal at NYC Half

SC - Nice week alongwith the time trial. I had a similar Wednesday, where I just didn't have it to go ahead with the workout.

JewBacca - What is the approximate amount of time that you run every week? Impressive to see the mileage and intensity. I, generally, tap out at somewhere between 9 and 10 hours a week. Earlier, I was able to do only 7-8 hours a week, but have been more serious about running over the last 6 months.

GFMAH - Hope you are able to run well soon.

HHH Runner - I was in Ireland last week. If the winds in London were any similar, it is pretty hard to run against that wind.

OR - That 'special block' is well..special. You will crush Boston :).

Sub 6 - Impressive race. I don't 'know' the paces that you run at, but can understand the not-hitting-the-exact-goal feeling.

GT - I am digging the Marshawn Lynch quotes :).

StillImproving - Smart on you to reduce the T volume after race week. I am beginning to see the value of being smart like that after joining this thread. The old me would have pushed the prescribed workout come what may.

Coach - Impressive attitude about racing Boston. Will be happy to meet you in person.

That's first page done...Off for my run. More comments later.

Guy B - yours is a problem I wish I had. I eat high fat / high protein / moderate carb (sweet potatoes, yams, occasionally rice, occasional bananas, light dessert, blueberries, and even veggies have carbs). I use Lara bars or dates for fuel when running long. Cliff Blocks during races and once or twice during training to make sure they don’t cause issues, and have a protein shake w banana &/or blueberries after a long run. I’ll have a bar (Lara, Rx, or primal kitchen) with my meal following a hard workout.

Sugar / refined carbs stick to me like white on rice. Unfortunately, biscuits and gravy = inflammation for days on end even if it’s nothing but kale otherwise. Thus, I only have my beloved pizza once, maybe twice, a month.

Dessert is usually a piece of dark chocolate (70%+ cacao, something w coconut milk, or almond flour based something.)

Lots of hard boiled eggs. 10 in the last two days, in fact. You gotta find what works for you, but my pesky weight doesn’t fall until the sugar / refined carbs go except following a workout.

I should add I do my best to move as much as possible. I sit the majority of the day and will literally do squats in the staircase and take lots of laps around the office. I’m the guy that gets paid to walk around in the mind of some. Also couldn’t figure out why my weight wouldn’t budge earlier this year, and it appears the handfuls of almonds 3-4x a day weren’t doing me any favors. Back to moderation with the nuts. Which is a weird thing to type.

Thank you guys for the feedback. I will probably end up going with the 6:29 group and then hammer it home after the bridge unless I find someone who also intends to run 6:20. The reason for why I think I'll feel more comfortable with a pace group is that I am really bad at pacing myself. Like today, I did a smaller workout based on my club's plan for the half that asked for 1.5 miles @HMP, 2min rest, 800m @10k, 2min rest, and 4 * 200 w/ 1min rest @5k. My paces were (supposed/actual) 1.5 - 6:20/5:50, 800 - 6:00/5:30, 200s - 5:40/5:09, 5:17, 4:54, 4:49. You get the idea I think, but unless I really feel the strain I often feel like I am not getting anything out of the workout which is probably also a bad attitude.

The thing with the shoes is that the Zante are nice for short distances. Quick turnover, light, etc. But they feel extremely hard and trash my calves in every workout. The 1600s on the other hand, even in wide, rub the joint where the big toe joins the foot, whatever that part is actually called. They also feel unresponsive and the upper is quite hard as well. I'll probably pick the Zante but I almost feel like running in my 1080s would be more comfortable.

Again thanks! I'll report back how it went.

Darkwave, thanks for asking. I've been joining another teams track sessions on occasion and try to best incorporate what they have planned with my own needs. The 2 sets of 6 x 800m (with graduated paces) fit in well with World Masters, as I'm planning on the 3k track, 8k xc and 10k road events. The speed of the 800's worked through a range of paces, from my current 10k date pace down to 3k goal pace.

Good luck this weekend in VA Beach!

RR - 50 with quality will make you feel like a runner.

JQ - Another big week. Good call sticking with doubles during the mini-taper.

SC - Glad the day off helped reset things. Smart 3k time trial.

Jewbacca - Congrats on the mileage PR.

GFMAH - Hope you can get some long term benefit from these struggles. A couple years ago I had to do PT for a stubborn injury, and I think some of the lessons and habits have helped me a lot since then.

Pewow - Another well-rounded week. Winter is almost over?

Puddles - Good mile repeats with not a lot of rest. You’re on track for Bayshore.

HHH - The bad thing about having an easy day in that wind is you can’t even fight against it.

OR - Those are two very good workouts in one week. Any other races before Boston?

GT - Very solid 1000s, even with a 4% conversion. It’s harder for me to gauge the alternations, but that’s not nothing. You’ve really been coming along.

TDR - That’s a plenty good week for having a couple cross-country flights.

SI - 10 miles at threshold pace with no rest is an excellent workout. The JD rule-of-thumb I’ve used is 1 easy day per 3k of racing. By that rule I’d say there’s no need for a killer workout midweek.

Cocoon - I love those steady effort long runs. The hills at the end add an excellent twist.

WHSrunner - Welcome to the thread. 2:01 is quick, and there’s some good variety in your week.

BHViking - Good week. I like the solid long tempos and steady long run.

Jeff - I’ve also been a bit puzzled as to a goal for Boston. It’s getting to the point where I/we should be locking in a pace, but that race seems to have so many variables and question marks. I guess my approach is more just to try to do what I can to be a stronger runner and then just not do anything too dumb during the first half of the races.

UD - Always impressed to see a master’s guy retain such speed.

Lanc - Congrats on the 3rd on the way. My wife insists that a Civic coupe won’t do once we have kids. I think the second Q day is more important than the long run.

ODOT - Sure you need to up the mileage, but that 8k indicates you’re in a good position to be somewhere under 2:30.

AJ - Thanks for dropping by. Berlin looks like a fun race. Was just mansplaining to my wife how they have the tangent line painted on the road.

RGMW - I like the description of your weight. And nice speed work.

GB - Plenty of thoughts on doubles and fueling the furnace. But it’s past bedtime and I’ll try to get to this tomorrow.

Still lurking around here so I'll add a few comments. Looks like most of the thread is getting very fit for early spring racing.

RRR - Solid week, I like the combination of CV work on Tuesday with some quicker fartlek work on Friday.

JQ - 4x2 miles w/ less than a half mile recovery is a very solid indicator of HM pace potential, imo.

Stone - Solid TT and good luck this weekend.

JB - Dang, that's a massive week.

Pewow - Good week, pretty high volume for you isn't that?

Puddles - Very solid 8xmile.

OR - Solid volume and quality. Don't get ahead of yourself with a full month to Boston still.

Sub 6:00 - Solid performance, even if it wasn't what you hoped for.

GT - Good week overall with 3 quality days. 50/80 isn't bad for the Deeks.

Cocoon - I might lose my mind trying to run 40 miles in one week on a treadmill.

LancRunner - Looks like I picked a good week to be in Texas. Good looking week!

Old Dog - That's a real solid 8k, especially on a negative split like that. Gotta think you might have 25:00 in you if you were to go out a little quicker.

Thanks everyone for the comments! And apologies for not getting around to reply to everyone else's awesome weeks. Bit of a hectic week oncall at work but I am poking in to catch up when I get the chance and am always impressed and inspired by everyone here!

Keep crushing it folks

RRR - Thanks for getting us started and nice week back into things

jot quill - another great week

Stone - Great TT, maybe change that big midweek workout to a medium one and save it for the 5k?

jewbacca - excited to see you cranking toward Boston

GFMAH - shoveling should help strengthen the hips

Puddles - nice 8x1mi

HHH - those track sessions should be good

OR - Big week man

sub 6 - solid race and keep building for Boston

GT - that's a familiar looking week

TDR - hope the stomach is better this week

SI - smart to cut the workout short

cocoon - so many treadmill miles

WHS - welcome to the thread

BHV - consistent week

Coach Jeff - Your cold rain is still warmer than my cold rain ;)

Urban - Nice 3 workouts

Lanc - nice 40min T run

old dog - good first race in a while

AJ - hang in there

RGMW - I like your hefty/light description

Guy - solid week

Coyote - keep up the skiing while there's snow

NYC - be nice to that knee

Lebanon - I hope there's some dry pavement here soon

darkwave - good luck at the shamrock half. Regarding my training really only the 600 workout was hard. The sprints and strength training are intense but I've learned to keep the volume low to get the most bang for my buck.

Wd - 3mi @ 7:10s

Sa - 3mi @ 7:40s

Su - 3.25mi @ 7:05s

Aiming for 5 runs next week (25mi)

- RS

RRR - Good to see you back at it. Like those 1ks @ CV. I like that WO, always leaves me feeling high. JQ - Miles, miles, miles. Excited to see how the half goes for you. Best of luck! Stone - That rest day sounds like it was much needed. When you're feeling down... rest is best JB - Way to go on the mileage PR. Lots 'o doubles, but that tempo at 5:30 pace had to leave you feeling pretty good. Something about tempo work that really gives you that runners high. Until the crash later... GoFaMiAH - Sounds like you're on track. Being dedicated to the rehab will reap many rewards for the future I am sure. pewow - Another super diverse week. Love following your training. OR - Keep it rolling. Your weeks look strong and that special block looked really challenging but solid. Had to be fun knowing that was coming and getting psyched up for it. Well done. Sub 6 - Nice half! Thanks for the race report. Those splits look pretty good to me. and you closed strong which bodes well for upcoming races... GT - The 200 float 400's sounds like an interesting workout. Man... I relish in my recovery that Daniels prescribes... running a 74s 400, but then jogging a quarter in like 2 min... 5:15/mile pace for those k's... Sub 17 right around the corner... TDR - Keep the wife happy. But still got in some work. Balance is key. SI - Nice week regardless of the altered workout, and I agree as you suspect, that 10 miler probably contributed to you not feeling it, but also to a good bump in fitness. cocoon - So. Much. Treadmill. Just hard for me to comprehend. I can't do it. Solid week though with good mileage. WHS - Nice week and nice 800. Also happens to be my PR. From high school. When I had speed. Sigh. BHV - Nice week, and I love the insight I get from your and Coach Jeff's training. It's so fun to see you guys buy into a method and really work it. So dedicated. Looks really strong. Coach J - Another good week. Wonder if that unexpected rest day came at the right time. These things have a way of happening. Urban D - Those 800's and 400's are seriously impressive. The 800's, progressively faster, on 1 min rest... dang that's a nice workout. Old Dog - nice 8k race. Man... you're flying. Negative split is even more impressive... AJ - Nice to see you back on the thread. Will be watching for more posts coming from you. RunGuy - What are your goals for the 8k, and the 5k in April... just curious if you have some times your gunning for. Guy Bro - I eat whatever I want (though i'm not necessarily a high mileage guy, i'm around 50 a week as well). I try to keep it to good foods, but let's face it... I'm not that good at it. Also, i'm a big snacker before bed, so that adds some calories as well. I've never experienced weight gain... but have had to jam calories in to keep weight. I'm 6ft, 145 and would like to keep my skeleton from showing more so than it does today. NYCHalf - I think your plan of going with a pace group and then hammering if you feel it is a good plan. Never hurts to start out conservatively if you can, just don't sell your fitness too short. If you feel you can really go, just go! LebHills - Welcome! You'll find that posting really does keep you accountable and makes you want to hit those workouts and runs every day. darkwave - Good luck at the shamrock half. Another nice and diverse week for you.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

LancRunner: Dang, you've got a lot on your dance card, but you do a really great job fitting it all in. Respect!

Ha! Yea, it's fun to juggle life, running, kids, work, and anything else. It's all about dropping the balls that matter the least. I refuse to think that I'm handling it that well. Just not messing it up too much.

stat - Texas would have been nice last week. Made it out to the track last night (Tuesday) and had NO IDEA the crew that showed up there. I was on the tail end of my workout when everyone started rolling in. Would be fun to workout with a group, haven't done that since high school. Maybe I'll try and make an effort tot get there once in a while.

RunnerSam - Good seeing you last night... that cool down felt a little fast to me after my WO...

Keep having a good week everyone!