Why is 90 minutes a long run? Do the special adaptations start at 90min or have you already benefitted?

cotton shirt wrote:

MatthewXCountry said : The glycogen completion hypothesis is bogus, depending on when and what you eat, this will vary drastically regardless to the amount you run. Most people won't deplete their glycogen in 90 minutes if they just ate, but if for example you go for a run right before lunchtime and forgot to eat breakfast, you'd burn through your glycogen in the first 40 minutes, easily.

this is nonsense. no athlete would "burn through their glycogen," in 40 minutes, whether they had just eaten or not.

to calculate your endurance on stored glycogen do the following:

* start with your weight in kilograms. we will use the example of a 70 kg hobby jogger. (70.0)

* multiply by your VO2 max, this can be estimated from Daniels tables, or similar. (70.0 x 46 = 3220)

* divide by 1000 to give you the litres of oxygen you consume per minute. (3220 / 1000 = 3.22)

* multiply by 20, because each Litre of oxygen produces 20 kJ of energy. (3.22 x 20 = 64.4)

* divide by 16.65, the number of kJ per gram of carbohydrate. (64.4 / 16.65 = 3.86786)

* this gives you the number of grams of carbohydrate you burn per minute, at VO2 max. (3.86786)

* then divide 700g (the average glycogen stored in your muscles) by the above figure to give you your endurance in minutes. 700 / 3.86786 = 180.9786 minutes = 3:00:58, a shade over three hours.

* this is true of normally stored glycogen and does not depend on fueling during runs, eating high glycogen foods before running or taking any special precautions, at all. you should also bear in mind that long runs are not at VO2 max, but at 65% - 70%, increasing endurance markedly.

see: Lore of Running (2004) by Tim Noakes, Chapter 3, Energy Systems and Running Performance, p.101 for a full explanation of how this is derived.

cheers.

can you follow the logic??? wrote:

stuff people say... wrote:

You can spend years thinking you know stuff and acting on it. When you find out you were wrong and why, you might consider a more enlightened approach?

Depends how much you really care though doesn't it?

OK, you started out with:

stuff people say... wrote:

Fat adaption metabolism? Go one make up some BS to justify that statement.

One person replied to that with:

You idiot wrote:

Longer you exercise, the less sugar you have available. And, the more you have to utilize fat as a energy source.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6571234https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2885974/

So you replied with:

stuff people say... wrote:

That happens whether you run long or not though doesn't it? The human body does not need to learn how to metabolize fat when glycogen stores are low.

Think about it, who is burning more fat in a marathon, Eliud Kipchoge or Joe Hobbyjogger?

So someone replied with:

Let think this through wrote:

The hobby jogger, since Eliud Kipchoge is only out there running for a bit over 2 hours(around the time one uses most of the glycogen one has stored). While most hobby joggers are out there for over 3 hours. And If you don't think you need to work on your body using fat, just try to do a workout on a fasted state without ever doing one before. Just a quick question. If working on your body to utilize fat more efficiently doesn't matter. Why does Canova has his athletes do specific workouts to work on this aspect?

In which you replied with:

stuff people say... wrote:

Well, you're right on the first point. Joe Hobbyjogger metabolized more fat in a marathon than Eliud Kipgoat.

But on the second point, fasted runs are pretty pointless, it's just another way to prove what a tough guy you are, which is not the point of the training. I get how tough you are, just like Joe Hobbyjogger running well over 3 hours for a marathon, he's super tough to hurt himself that much ain't he?

Renato's Marathon specific workouts (in fact all his specific workouts) are all about EXTENDING ENDURANCE. That is not a fat adaption, it's a skills adaption, strengthening the neural pathways which is linked to more glycogen storage along that specific pathway.

The point is, your body knows how to metabolize fats when glycogen stores are low and it naturally stores more intrumuscular triglycerides for this purpose when you train more and eat more.

Fat adaption blah blah blah, it's just stuff people say, like "you have to land under your center of gravity" ....it's just nonsense, but if enough people say it, it becomes the Emperor's new clothes.

In which the person corrected you showing Canova saying he does specific workouts to work on the bodies abablity to use fat as fuel. When you said one did not need to do this.

Let think this through wrote:

No, Canova does specific workouts for fat adaption. For example, sometimes doing two marathon specific workouts a day in which he has them eat no carbohydrates between the two workouts.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3923991&page=2

So than you back track, claiming that it is not about fat adaptation. But about getting the, " to get used to running at marathon pace when somewhat glycogen depleted. This is not a 'fat adaption' it's a skill adaption, maintaining a pace for longer." When you have depleted your glycogen storage, what does your body than use as energy?

stuff people say... wrote:

The point of that training is to get used to running at marathon pace when somewhat glycogen depleted. This is not a 'fat adaption' it's a skill adaption, maintaining a pace for longer. Your body knows how to burn fat it doesn't need to be taught. Fat adaption is just stuff people say, because they don't know any better.

After this response the person said:

Let think this through wrote:

You say tomato and I say tomato.

So you replied with:

stuff people say... wrote:

You say stuff that other people say and I tell you why it's nonsense.

Running at race pace when slightly glycogen depleted is beneficial in improving efficiency and there are lots of ways to do it. But it's not a 'fat adaption' it's a skills adaption and the lack of recognition of this fact is behind a huge amount of the BS that people talk about running.

So, you do need to work on your body using other sources as fuel when you are running out of glycogen? But at first you said one does not need to work on this? Than you followed up with:

stuff people say... wrote:

You can spend years thinking you know stuff and acting on it. When you find out you were wrong and why, you might consider a more enlightened approach?

Depends how much you really care though doesn't it?

So, what is it? At first you said it is nonsense, and one does not need to work on using other sources of fuel when you run out of sugar. When that person showed Canova saying he does work on this aspect. You than respond with, it is about improving efficiency at race pace, when you are becoming glycogen depleted. Just out of curiosity, when you run out of sugar. Than what does your body use as fuel?