Ultra ultramarathoner....... wrote:
90 minutes isn't even a proper warmup.
I wouldn't consider anything under 3 hours to be called a long run.
Basically you are saying that elite marathoners do not do long runs.......
Ultra ultramarathoner....... wrote:
90 minutes isn't even a proper warmup.
I wouldn't consider anything under 3 hours to be called a long run.
Basically you are saying that elite marathoners do not do long runs.......
tropicalrunner wrote:
Ultra ultramarathoner....... wrote:
90 minutes isn't even a proper warmup.
I wouldn't consider anything under 3 hours to be called a long run.
Basically you are saying that elite marathoners do not do long runs.......
Some of the Japanese marathoners do ultra long jogs, lasting up to a hundred kilometers. Kenny Moore often did a 30-36 mile long run, that probably lasted about 3 hours for him. Canova said that Gelindo Bordin would do at least one 50 kilometer long run in his marathon build up.
I'm doing an 85-minute short run on Saturday that will be 30% of my mileage for the week. Planning to run the middle 3 at 5k race pace, and wondering if I'll utilize my fat at all.
good job there wrote:
Glycogen depletion wrote:
It is all about glycogen depletion and fat adaption metabolism.
Good job not answering the question.
If you understand basic training you should be able to extrapolate an answer.
Friendly Reminder wrote:
I'm doing an 85-minute short run on Saturday that will be 30% of my mileage for the week. Planning to run the middle 3 at 5k race pace, and wondering if I'll utilize my fat at all.
Yes, especially if you fast for 24 hours after the run.
tropicalrunner wrote:
Ultra ultramarathoner....... wrote:
90 minutes isn't even a proper warmup.
I wouldn't consider anything under 3 hours to be called a long run.
Basically you are saying that elite marathoners do not do long runs.......
Yes, that's what I am saying.
Bobs 1964 Gold medal year...his longest run was his 1/2 mile warm ups and cool downs. The whole year.
I know this because he told me
Hashtag not all wrote:
tropicalrunner wrote:
Basically you are saying that elite marathoners do not do long runs.......
Some of the Japanese marathoners do ultra long jogs, lasting up to a hundred kilometers. Kenny Moore often did a 30-36 mile long run, that probably lasted about 3 hours for him. Canova said that Gelindo Bordin would do at least one 50 kilometer long run in his marathon build up.
And Carlos Lopes rarely ran over 90 minutes.
nizzinty nizzine wrote:
Why is 90 minutes a long run? Do the special adaptations start at 90min or have you already gained long run benefits from 75-90min or something like that?
There is nothing special about 90 min.
Esteemed coach & exercise physiologist Dr Jack Daniels, believes long runs should comprise 20 to 25 percent of your total weekly volume. In his formula, a runner putting in 40-mile weeks would do a long run of 8 to 10 miles; a runner averaging 80 miles per week would go 16 to 20 miles. These guidelines scale the run to your current ability level and training load.
Basically, for serious, but not elite level, runners*, 55 - 70 miles or so a week is a very common load. For those doing that type of mileage, running between 6:30 and 8 min/mile pace for their long run, you'd expect a long run of approximately 90minutes.
Elite marathon runners would likely have longer long runs than 90 minutes and beginner athletes might only do 60 min long runs. There is nothing special about 90minutes. The glycogen completion hypothesis is bogus, depending on when and what you eat, this will vary drastically regardless to the amount you run. Most people won't deplete their glycogen in 90 minutes if they just ate, but if for example you go for a run right before lunchtime and forgot to eat breakfast, you'd burn through your glycogen in the first 40 minutes, easily.
*e.g. good high school & average NCAA competitors and serious road racers with day jobs
MatthewXCountry said : The glycogen completion hypothesis is bogus, depending on when and what you eat, this will vary drastically regardless to the amount you run. Most people won't deplete their glycogen in 90 minutes if they just ate, but if for example you go for a run right before lunchtime and forgot to eat breakfast, you'd burn through your glycogen in the first 40 minutes, easily.
this is nonsense. no athlete would "burn through their glycogen," in 40 minutes, whether they had just eaten or not.
to calculate your endurance on stored glycogen do the following:
* start with your weight in kilograms. we will use the example of a 70 kg hobby jogger. (70.0)
* multiply by your VO2 max, this can be estimated from Daniels tables, or similar. (70.0 x 46 = 3220)
* divide by 1000 to give you the litres of oxygen you consume per minute. (3220 / 1000 = 3.22)
* multiply by 20, because each Litre of oxygen produces 20 kJ of energy. (3.22 x 20 = 64.4)
* divide by 16.65, the number of kJ per gram of carbohydrate. (64.4 / 16.65 = 3.86786)
* this gives you the number of grams of carbohydrate you burn per minute, at VO2 max. (3.86786)
* then divide 700g (the average glycogen stored in your muscles) by the above figure to give you your endurance in minutes. 700 / 3.86786 = 180.9786 minutes = 3:00:58, a shade over three hours.
* this is true of normally stored glycogen and does not depend on fueling during runs, eating high glycogen foods before running or taking any special precautions, at all. you should also bear in mind that long runs are not at VO2 max, but at 65% - 70%, increasing endurance markedly.
see: Lore of Running (2004) by Tim Noakes, Chapter 3, Energy Systems and Running Performance, p.101 for a full explanation of how this is derived.
cheers.
Usually if you run 90 minutes, you go pretty far, so they call it a long run.
If you're extremely slow, it might be more of a middle distance thing.
It's got nothing to do with Vorsprung durch technique you know. And it's not about you joggers, who go round and round and round
I'm out of my element here, but this resembles a scientific answer. Thank you.
Several people have suggested that the adaptations related to glycogen depletion don't do much for 1500 or 5000 runners. Where do you and Tim Noakes come out on that? Is there any reason for a 60 mpw 4:15 miler to ever worry about running for more than 80 minutes?
Isn't that what depletion runs are?
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9121481http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5691462Bob schul country wrote:
Bobs 1964 Gold medal year...his longest run was his 1/2 mile warm ups and cool downs. The whole year.
I know this because he told me
So you're saying he didn't race?
ultra altra ultra thoner wrote:
tropicalrunner wrote:
Basically you are saying that elite marathoners do not do long runs.......
Yes, that's what I am saying.
This thread is about actual running, not power hiking.
Excellent! I remember reading that East German study, years ago. The magic happens at between 1:45 and 2:05. Do you remember the title of the study or do you have a link?
It was in one of the Hadd threads. I'll have to search for it.
This has been a good thread. (other than the ultradouche chiming in. cmon dude nobody cares about that stuff)
I like it when people question stuff we all do just because someone said to do it years ago.
Typical training week usually has some mix of tempo, speed, recovery and the ever present long run. In college that was anything from 10-15 miles, it varied depending on where we were in season. I think we may have run 18M once, but that was it. I had never run farther than that until I started marathon training. FWIW, In HS my long run was 8M.
Good discussion, makes me rethink what Im doing.
the two things I emphasise are:
1. train the athlete, not the event. you, as an individual must try always to do the specific training that induces the specific adaptations that make you better suited to meet your performance goals. if that means you end up doing training that does not look like anything anyone else does, that simply means that they do not have your development needs or your performance goals.
2. do not alter your training until you have stopped adapting to what you are doing now. just because you have done 8 mile long runs for 6 weeks does not mean you necessarily have to make them longer just because longer is possible. if you are still adapting to it, then it is still of value to you. more miles or more minutes just means more stress, and the point, always, is to derive the maximum possible benefit from the least amount of training, not just do more because it is possible to do more.
bearing those two things in mind, and assuming that as a 4:15 miler you are going to be doing your long runs at around 7:30 pace, or slower, I do not think you need to be doing long runs of more than around 12 - 15 miles, which is the same as saying not more than 90 minutes, or so.
there are a number of issues that have become confused.
1. each of us metabolises a combination of fat and glycogen that is, to some extent, entirely our own. you and I could be jogging along together at a comfortable conversational pace but one of us is burning more fat than glycogen while the other is doing the exact opposite. therefore, no one can predict a specific pace at which any given individual will be burning mostly fat.
2. however, fat does tend to be metabolised at slower speeds. long, slow runs, the LSD of the 80's running boom popularised by Jack Shepherd, Jim Fixx and so forth, was thought for many years to be burning mostly fat, and, that doing this encouraged fat burning and "taught" the body to burn fat in preference to glycogen. this was predicated on the idea that you could somehow delay the depletion of glycogen and therefore avoid hitting "the wall," that was thought to be the point at which glycogen became so depleted that your body had to switch over to alternative fuels.
3. this idea became discredited when it was found that, as calculated above, it is actually pretty darned difficult to deplete your glycogen, and, you train the body to burn fat not by running slowly, but by adding fat to your diet. your body becomes accustomed to burning whichever fuel is available; eat fat, your muscles burn fat. and, studies have shown that the effect can be induced with only three or four days with an increased fat content.
4. point 2 and point 3 together brought about a drastic change to the old-fashioned "carbo-loading" regime where athletes went on a glycogen depletion run, ate a low carb diet for 2 - 3 days, then bulked up on carbs for four days to, theoretically, amass a vast reserve of glycogen. once it was found that fat burning can be induced simply by eating fat, the depletion run and low carb phase were eliminated, the pre-race carbo-loading pasta parties became a thing of the past and athletes simply trained as normal, then in the final week of race preparation altered the proportion of fat and carbs in their diet to suit.
all of this applies primarily to distance runners, marathon runners mostly, and most of it was thought to be completely unnecessary for 5000m and 10,000m runners. hence the advice that "adaptations to glycogen depletion," are not of value to 1500m and 5000m runners.
however, you make other adaptations at these paces than simply altering your fuel supply. it develops your heart muscle, increases stroke volume, increases vascularisation (more blood vessels) and there are numerous structural changes to muscle fibers to adapt to the work load. these changes are of immense benefit to all runners, not just distance guys and you should aim to benefit from them as much as your schedule allows.
note for pedants: the expression "your body becomes accustomed to burning whichever fuel is available; eat fat, your muscles burn fat" should not be interpreted as advocating an extreme high fat diet. I'm not suggesting that runners should live like Inuit and eat whale blubber for their tea. it simply means that putting an extra nob of butter in your scrambled egg, swapping out your low fat milk for an alternative, adding half an avocado to your salad, and so forth, can increase the fat burning going on in your muscles. and you only need to do this for four or five days during your pre-race taper.
cheers.
The point of that training is to get used to running at marathon pace when somewhat glycogen depleted. This is not a 'fat adaption' it's a skill adaption, maintaining a pace for longer. Your body knows how to burn fat it doesn't need to be taught. Fat adaption is just stuff people say, because they don't know any better.
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Am I living in the twilight zone? The Boston Marathon weather was terrible!
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