My goal of Sub 15:00 5k

thedub wrote:

Welcome to the thread! I admire the discipline you have to do all treadmill running. Must be tough!

Thank you! And thank you for starting the thread and for keeping it up, along with the other contributors; it is inspiring to follow people's progress!

I only recently started using a treadmill, but am actually really happy with using it. I train alone, and if I run outside or on the track, almost always run late in the evening once my children have gone to bed. I also don't have a Garmin or similar. Under those circumstances, whilst running by feel is very useful, it can be difficult to find and maintain the right pace for a given session. The treadmill allows me to do that, and also to very rigorously increment the parameters each week, so that I can progress in a precise way. I also for some reason recover much more quickly than running on the road or track. Finally, I can do it at lunch at work, which frees up my evenings!

Longer runs on a treadmill are definitely challenging psychologically, but I'm surviving so far!

My training for the week. Again, treadmill paces are without adjustment for wind resistance, using the following calculator for incline adjustment:

https://42.195km.net/e/treadsim/

.

Sunday - 2 x 5 x 60m mostly in 9-10s on indoor track, 5th, 6th, and 9th in 10-11s. Followed by 2 x 100m in 15-16s then 14-15s, walking/standing rest 3 mins between the 60's, and 5 mins between sets, and 5 minutes rest between the 100's.

Monday - 5 x 1km with 1% incline at 20 km/h (vVO2Max-ish, converted 20.9 km/h on flat ground, 2:52 - 2:53 min/km). Around 2:45 - 3:00 jog rest at 1% incline, 9 km / h (converted 9.4 km/h, around 6:23 min/km). Treadmill.

Tuesday - 16km continuous run (aerobic threshold run), first 2km at 15.2 km/h (3:57 min/km), next 12km at 15.5 km/h (3:52 min/km), last 2km at 16.4 km/h (3:40 min/km). Treadmill 0% incline.

Thursday - 600m - 500m - 400m - 300m -200m - 150km with 7% incline at 18 - 18.5 - 19 - 19.5 -20 - 20 km / h,

last one at 8% incline, (converted to 23.7 - 24.3 -25 - 25.6 - 26.3 - 27.2 km/h on flat, 2:32 - 2:29 - 2:24 - 2:21 - 2:17 - 2:13 min/km). Walking rest at 3.5 - 4 km/h for 400 - 400 - 400 - 300 - 200m. Treadmill.

Friday - 3000m - 2000m - 1400m (tempo intervals) at 19 km / h, 19.5 km / h, 19 km / h (3:10 min / km, 3:05 min/km, 3:10 min/km). Treadmill 0% incline. Within the middle one was the first sub 5 minute mile that I've done, albeit that I'm pretty sure that it would correspond to a slower pace outside or on the track.

Also about 2 x 5-7 km easy cycling Wednesday - Friday (morning and late afternoon, with the running around lunch), a bit more than that on Thursday

I should say that the max speed on the treadmill I am using is 20 km/h, hence why I am using incline to try to replicate to some extent running at a faster speed, even if the mechanics will not be exactly the same.

Great week, unusual! I admire the discipline and drive you have. Keep up the good work.

unusual_training wrote:

I should say that the max speed on the treadmill I am using is 20 km/h, hence why I am using incline to try to replicate to some extent running at a faster speed, even if the mechanics will not be exactly the same.

I also like how you are having to get creative since you are limited to the treadmill. I'm no expert, but I imagine using incline will help. Plus, you can still do a lot of great work at 20km/h. That is not too much slower than 15:00 pace.

Do you know how many km or miles a week you have been averaging?

-thedub

thedub wrote:

Plus, you can still do a lot of great work at 20km/h. That is not too much slower than 15:00 pace.

-thedub

you realise 20kph is exactly 15:00-pace?

Norwegianrunner wrote:

[quote]thedub wrote:

you realise 20kph is exactly 15:00-pace?

I do now! I was just doing the conversions in my head. Thank you for pointing that out. Math is not my strength (:

Here is the week that was!

12/1

- 12 miles @ 6:38 pace

12/2

-A.M. 8 miles

-P.M. 4 miles

12/3

- 800 @ 2:28

- 4 mile tempo @ 5:43

- 800 @ 2:28

12/4

-9 miles easy

12/5

-8 miles easy + 5x200 @ 33 sec

12/6

- 8 miles easy

12/7: RACE DAY

-1 mile run in 4:31.

TOTAL: 64 MILES (close to all time high)

I got out kicked by a second to a 3:56 1500 runner. I’m pretty pleased with the race.

Solid week! Sounds like you had a pretty good race and as long as you continue to improve, which you should with the mileage, you're well on your way to your goal!

Still on my break, took 5 days off and now I'm cross training and running every other day, but I didn't lose much because I ran an hour yesterday at 6:40 and it felt like I was going a lot slower. For indoors, which starts January for me, I'm training for 3k, which means I will probably hit the same mileage as xc, but I plan to double more and be more consistent with it this season, so I'll probably be 90+ mpw most weeks.

thedub wrote:

Here is the week that was!

Very nice race and workout on the 3rd!

thedub wrote:

Keep up the good work.

Do you know how many km or miles a week you have been averaging?

-thedub

Thank you for the kind encouragement! Likewise, that was a great week that you just put in!

I actually don't count km-age/mileage at the moment! I don't feel that it's a key metric for my training; I think rather in terms of which workouts I'd like to complete that week, and aim to complete them, which in particular involves doing sufficient quality volume in those workouts.

Time will tell if the approach works, but I feel I'm making progress at the moment at least!

My training for the week. As usual, treadmill paces are without adjustment for wind resistance, but adjusted for incline according to the calculator mentioned previously.

Sunday - Indoor track. Three sets: 40-100-100-100/40-60-100-100/40-60-100-150m in unknown-14-14-14/7-9-14-14/7-10-14-22s. Rest: 3-4-4/6/3-3-4/6/3-3-5 min walking/standing.

Monday - 4 x 700m then 1 x 500m, all at 20 km/h on treadmill with 3% incline (converts to 22.7 km/h on flat, 2:39 min/km pace, 1:51 for the 700s, 1:20 for the 500), about 2:30 rest between each at 8.5-9 km/h, same incline (converts to 9.6-10.2 km/h on flat, 6:15-5:53 min/km pace).

Tuesday - 6.6 km continuous, first 6km at 18 km/h (3:20 min/km pace), last 600m at 18.5 km/h (3:15 min/km pace). Treadmill, 0% incline.

Thursday - 2000 - 1500 - 1600 - 1000m at 20 - 20 - 19 - 20 km/h (3:00 - 3:00 - 3:10 - 3:00 min/km pace) About 3 min rest at 8.5-10 km/h (7:04 - 6:00 min/km pace), maybe 2:30 between second and third rep. Treadmill, 0% incline.

Friday - 5 x 400 at 20 km/h with 4% incline (converts to 23.6 km/h on flat, 2:33 min/km pace, 61.2s), 1-1:30 rest (closer to 1:30 mostly) at 8.5-9 km/h, same incline (converts to 10 - 10.6 km/h on flat, 6:00 - 5:40 min/km). Then about 3:30 - 4 min rest of same kind, then 3 x 400 at 20 km/h, 5-4-4% incline (converts to 24.5 - 23.6 - 23.6 km/h on the flat, 2:27 - 2:33 - 2:33 min/km, 58.8 - 61.2 - 61.2s), with same 1-1:30 rest. Treadmill.

About 2 x 5-7 km easy cycling Monday - Friday (morning and late afternoon, with the running around lunch).

Thursday was the workout I was most focused on; was keen to manage 2000m at 3:00 min/km pace (with the usual caveat that it would almost certainly be slower on track or road).

I get that it's your name but you're doing 5 workouts with minimal easy running. You're clearly talented enough to break 15 eventuallt, that tempo workout probably indicates sub 16 / sub 9 shape already. If you look at the vast majority of people who've broken 15, you'll find they

a) run 2-3 hard sessions a week, everything else easy

b) run pretty high volume (60-100 mpw)

When I ran 14:15 I'd do 1 tempo, 1 interval session around 5k-10k pace, strides once a week and around 75 miles / week. Easy runs would be around 7:00/mile.

Obviously if you're having good results and enjoying training I cant really criticize but all those hard sessions risks burnout and not doing enough mileage means you'll be aerobically underdeveloped.

Rdase wrote:

I get that it's your name but you're doing 5 workouts with minimal easy running. You're clearly talented enough to break 15 eventuallt, that tempo workout probably indicates sub 16 / sub 9 shape already. If you look at the vast majority of people who've broken 15, you'll find they

a) run 2-3 hard sessions a week, everything else easy

b) run pretty high volume (60-100 mpw)

When I ran 14:15 I'd do 1 tempo, 1 interval session around 5k-10k pace, strides once a week and around 75 miles / week. Easy runs would be around 7:00/mile.

Obviously if you're having good results and enjoying training I cant really criticize but all those hard sessions risks burnout and not doing enough mileage means you'll be aerobically underdeveloped.

Thanks very much for your feedback and for sharing your experiences! It is very good not just for me but for passive readers of the thread to hear from people who've 'been there and done it'!

I would be delighted if I am in sub 9 shape! It's the difficulty of converting treadmill pace to track pace that makes me wonder.

Yes, as you guessed, I'm aware that I'm not following the recommended training route; what you describe sounds like exactly what I think would be the recommended route to fast 5km running, and I cannot criticise it all!

Just in case it interests you or someone, I'll just offer a few thoughts on why I'm proceeding (for now at least!) a bit differently. This is absolutely not meant to be presumptious, or to indicate that I think that I know better!

1) My circumstances are such that I do not really have the opportunity to do that much easy running each week. At 7:00/mile, 75 miles per week would be 10-11 hours, and then there are the two workouts as well (or three if the strides are a separate session), which might be about 2 hours more. I just don't have that time available unfortunately. I have about 5-6 hours max available.

2) I do not really enjoy running 'easily'; I wouldn't really wish to run much below the aerobic threshold (about 70% of 5k pace, say). Maybe I could learn to enjoy it, but that's how I feel at the moment :-).

3) I make no claims to be any kind of expert, but I've tried to read and learn what I can, and I'm not convinced that high mileage is so important for the aerobic system for 5km or under, at least for someone with my background;

a) studies do seem to suggest that VO2Max and threshold runs are very effective in developing the aerobic system, if one is strong enough aerobically already to tolerate the work,

b) I have many years of cycling and other sport behind me, so I'd guess that, at least cardiovascularly, I have a decent base aerobic system; it is probably more of a case of specialising it towards running,

c) I think that the reason that it would not suit many people to more high quality work is that they would not recover in time and/or would not enjoy it; as you hint, I do actually enjoy my training and feel that it is rewarding, and for some reason I seem to recover reasonably quickly, or else I can tolerate some muscle soreness perhaps better than the average person!

d) All that said, I am very conscious of the possibility of losing aerobic fitness; I do an 'aerobic threshold' run every second week (latest yesterday!) of about 16km at a notch quicker than 4:00 min/km. I see that as a key workout to keep an eye on; as long as I can at least maintain my level (and ideally progress slowly) from one time to the next, I am not too worried, for if I can run using predominately my aerobic system, but the upper end of it, for 3-4 times the length of the races I'm training for, that should be enough aerobic support I think.

4) I'm 35, and may not have too many years ahead of me where I have a chance to run close to my potential. I'd kind of rather give it a full go and fail than die wondering :-).

I have a 3km race indoor in mid-January and again in mid-February. I'd love to run sub 9, and more generally do as well as I can, in one or both of those. I have then a 5km road race some time in April; if I could go sub 15 by then, that would be wonderful. After that my circumstances will change again, and I may not be able to train as often. Thus I'm planning to maintain my current schedule at least until January, and if the 3km races go well, maybe until the race in April. After that I'll take a step back and see whether I should change things; if things don't go well, I'll look into changing things earlier.

But in the meantime all feedback is very welcome; I read it and take it into consideration, even if I may not immediately act upon it.

My training for the week. As usual, treadmill paces are without adjustment for wind resistance, but adjusted for incline according to the calculator mentioned previously (but I definitely cannot run as fast on the track, at least for the shorter/steeper intervals).

Sunday - Indoor track. Three sets: 40-60-100-150/40-60-100-150/40-60-100-200m with 2-3-4/6/2-3-4/6/2:30-3-5 min walking/standing rest, in 6-10-15-22/7-10-15-22/7-9-15-30s.

Monday - 1200-1200-1200-1000-800m at 20km/h with 1% incline (converts to 20.9 km/h on flat, 2:52 - 2:53 min/km), with 3:00 jog rest at same incline, 8.5-9 km / h (converts to 8.9-9.4 km/h, around 6:23-6:45 min/km). Treadmill.

Tuesday - 16km continuous, first 15.6 at 15.5 km/h, last 400m at 16 km/h - ish. Treadmill, 0% incline.

Thursday - 600m - 500m - 400m - 300m -200m - 150km at 18.5 - 19 - 19.5 - 20 - 20 - 20 km / h, with 7 - 7 - 7 - 7 - 8 - 9% incline (converts to 24.3 - 25 - 25.6 - 26.3 - 27.2 - 28.1 km/h on flat, 2:29 - 2:24 - 2:21 - 2:17 - 2:13 - 2:09 min/km, 88.8 - 72 - 56 - 41.1 - 26.4 - 19.2s). Walking rest at 3.5 - 4 km/h for 400 - 400 - 400 - 300 - 200m ish (3-4 mins rather than exactly 400m). Treadmill.

Friday - 3000m - 2000m - 1500m at 19.5 km/h - 20 km/h - 19.5 km/h, 4-3 ish minute rest at 9 - 10 km/h. Treadmill, 0% incline.

About 2 x 7 km easy cycling on Monday only (morning and late afternoon, with the running around lunch).

Felt sharp and invigorated after Thursday's workout, and was especially pleased with Friday's (today's).

Also, as discussed in previous post, happy that Tuesday's 'aerobic threshold' workout indicates that the high-end aerobic system is still working fine.

Great week, unusual! About one month until your first indoor race, correct? I will be racing the 3k in mid January as well. I agree with the other poster that you appear to be in sub-9 shape. Keep up the work!

The past week:

12/8

13 miles @ 6:14 pace. Got after it on this one. Probably went too hard, oh well.

12/9

A.M. 8 miles easy

P.M 4 miles easy

12/10

8 miles easy

12/11

10 miles easy

12/12

5 mi. tempo @ 5:40 pace

2 min rest

1 mi. @ 5:15

Total: 10 miles. Felt very very worn out on this one.

12/13

A.M. 4 miles

P.M. 8 miles

Total: 65 miles

Feeling pretty worn out! Believe it or not, this is the highest mileage I have ever done, so I expect it to be a couple more weeks until I adapt. Plus, it was finals week so I was extra worn out. Hope everyone has had a great week though!

Hey, seems you are going right way.

Wanted to ask, how many miles have you ran in this year or last year ? About 60 miles per week ?

Hopefully you are gonna break 9 min this time.

unusual_training wrote:

Friday - 3000m - 2000m - 1500m at 19.5 km/h - 20 km/h - 19.5 km/h, 4-3 ish minute rest at 9 - 10 km/h. Treadmill, 0% incline.

I am curious how 20 km/h feels on the treadmill.

Do you feel like you can hold that pace for 15 min or are you thinking, Oh my god, I am going to die in the last km?

thedub wrote:

Great week, unusual! About one month until your first indoor race, correct? I will be racing the 3k in mid January as well. I agree with the other poster that you appear to be in sub-9 shape. Keep up the work!

Thank you! Great work to you too, that long run was very impressive! Good luck keeping up the record mileage levels!

Yes, about a month until that first race. Nice that you will be racing the 3k around then too!

I hope so regarding the sub 9 shape; I've never done a race following treadmill work before, so am uncertain how it will convert. Will be easier after a race or two!

byteherder wrote:

unusual_training wrote:

Friday - 3000m - 2000m - 1500m at 19.5 km/h - 20 km/h - 19.5 km/h, 4-3 ish minute rest at 9 - 10 km/h. Treadmill, 0% incline.

I am curious how 20 km/h feels on the treadmill.

Do you feel like you can hold that pace for 15 min or are you thinking, Oh my god, I am going to die in the last km?

Thanks for your interest! Good question! In the quoted workout, I'd say the feel was at the top end of tempo work; "comfortably hard" would be appropriate, but right at the top end of comfortable!

The first 2km of the 3km at 19.5 km/h pace were fine; I would even say the first 1km or so was quite easy, and breezed by. The last 1km of it was tougher, I had to dig in towards the end.

In the 2km at 20 km/h which followed, the first 1km was fine, the second was tougher, and again towards the end I had to dig in.

In the final 1.5 km at 19.5 km/h, the first 800m or so breezed by, the second half was tougher.

In general I would say that 20 km/h is currently fairly comfortable; I do not feel that I'm straining, but after a while at that pace, I have to work hard. I wouldn't say I was dieing at any point in the workout, but definitely I had to work very hard towards the end of all three intervals. It gets quite warm in the gym (no fan blowing cold air), which might contribute to that.