Is there any downside to doing a spontanious moderate run ?

Holysmokes! wrote:

Wouldn't Lydiard base building be all @ a moderate aerobic effort?

Maybe someone like HRE can comment on this that knew him if I am wrong in saying yes.

The Marathon vase period was marked by an increase in the pace. That is why he got annoyed when people tagged him with the term Long Slow Distance when his athletes were running at a “steady state” pace that was very fast but under control.

Sorry about my grammar!!

OP, too many moderate runs will impair your ability to spell.

apparently not... wrote:

Complicated wrote:

If you run moderate often, like 4 or 5 times a week, you'll you will get fit but not reach your full potential. If you want to maximize your speed you should definitely run the 2-3 harder days with the 4 easy days between them. That middle-ground pace is too fast to recover, and not fast enough to really make you race faster.

I'm thinking of someone that races around 5 minute miles for a 5k, but does easy runs around 7 minute miles.

Doing a bunch of runs at 5:45 pace will make you get stuck at your current fitness because you're not pushing down your race speed and you're not really recovering on any particular day. The only acception I think is during the long run, you can do this 'medium' pace during a long run and I think it feels beneficial.

Ever heard of tempo runs?

A 5:45 pace for someone racing at 5 minute pace or better isn't really a tempo run, so try again.

As long as you're not forcing it and the moderate effort kind of comes naturally throughout the run as you loosen up. Long runs usually end up this way unless you are coming off a hard race.

Not a tempo run wrote:

apparently not... wrote:

Ever heard of tempo runs?

A 5:45 pace for someone racing at 5 minute pace or better isn't really a tempo run, so try again.

I’m nkt saying you’re wrong but nobody said it was tempo pace, we are discussing moderate pace. 5:40-6:15 is what I would consider moderate for somebody in that shape.

Not a tempo run wrote:

apparently not... wrote:

Ever heard of tempo runs?

A 5:45 pace for someone racing at 5 minute pace or better isn't really a tempo run, so try again.

Yes it is. Try again.

A common thread I realized too late, after my fast college and years immediately-following days:

I'd run into friends and others on morning runs or standard afternoon runs, say, and they'd always be running slower than sh*t! I'd run along with them, tripping over my own feet, itching to go faster. I'd leave them eventually, and turn it up to a pace that felt better to me. I might even add a few miles in, since I'd been literally walking for a while there.

Then race day would come around, and I'd hardly ever finish in front of any of those other guys.

This thread, and the thinking that you should only do "recovery days" and "workout" days, is so messed up. I don't feel like explaining why, as I have a lot to do today, but the so-called "moderate run," a steady state or progression tempo run slightly slower than anaerobic threshold, is the most important workout for distance runners. Super slow recovery days as needed and before and after races are okay, but this notion that you need to jog slowly 4-5 days a week and then run some kind of "workout" that is supposedly targeting a specific "energy system " is ridiculous. Run a lot of miles and gradually run them faster on average over the years as you progress. That's the foundation.

overanalyzy

Yea, you might enjoy yourself. Take it easy pal

Raysharp001 wrote:

This thread, and the thinking that you should only do "recovery days" and "workout" days, is so messed up. I don't feel like explaining why, as I have a lot to do today, but the so-called "moderate run," a steady state or progression tempo run slightly slower than anaerobic threshold, is the most important workout for distance runners. Super slow recovery days as needed and before and after races are okay, but this notion that you need to jog slowly 4-5 days a week and then run some kind of "workout" that is supposedly targeting a specific "energy system " is ridiculous. Run a lot of miles and gradually run them faster on average over the years as you progress. That's the foundation.

^This. People have this silly idea that elites run either really slow or structured workouts. I remember reading Shaheen´s (steeple WR holder) training diary. There were lots of runs like 15 km@3,20/km. That´s slower than marathon pace but faster than easy. If you need to run all of your non workout runs really slow then your workouts are too hard or your mileage is too high (yes, there is such a thing as too high mileage) - or both.

FFF wrote:

A common thread I realized too late, after my fast college and years immediately-following days:

I'd run into friends and others on morning runs or standard afternoon runs, say, and they'd always be running slower than sh*t! I'd run along with them, tripping over my own feet, itching to go faster. I'd leave them eventually, and turn it up to a pace that felt better to me. I might even add a few miles in, since I'd been literally walking for a while there.

Then race day would come around, and I'd hardly ever finish in front of any of those other guys.

Are you more fast twitch? I do this and I’m mostly fast twitch, I find it tedious to run at my JD-prescribed easy pace and never feel comfortable until at least 30 sec per mile faster.

Is this a fast twitch thing ??? Coz I heard with slow twitchers the best training is a buttload load of miles at easy/moderate pace with a focus on developing speed on workout days but for fast twitchers the best training is mediocre mileage at a moderate pace but with fast tempo intervals (think instead of a 4 mile tempo, you’d get more benefit off 3 x 1.5 mile at tempo pace w 1 min rest)

I think everything of importance has already been said except this: many people are tied to the 7 day week and the best way for you to schedule their running is around the rest of their life, so you have days of the week that are workouts, a day of the week for a long run, and days of the week for recovery.

When that's the case, sometimes you don't need recovery but you can't squeeze in another workout either. Thus you do a moderate day.

I think this happens especially a lot for people who make their long runs double as a workout by doing long stretches at marathon pace, or ending them with threshold pace, or whatever. So let's say your workout days are Monday and Wednesday and your long run day is Saturday. If you are ready for a hard effort on Monday, and you also want to do a tough long run on Saturday, the best thing for your week might be making some of Tuesday-Friday moderate days and not forcing a hard workout on Wednesday. You could force a moderate effort on Tuesday on tired legs or let it happen naturally on Wednesday or Thursday. Or plan to do moderate efforts on both Wednesday and Thursday if you're confident you'll still be ready for your long run.

So I think moderate days are a good scheduling tool for our awkward 7 day week so that we avoid doing anything too risky but we also avoid wasting days where we could fit in a little extra stimulus.

I love letting a lot of my runs turn into progression runs where my pace will dip below 6 min by the end -- averages out to 6:30 to 6:20, which isn't too crazy. If you are working out Tuesday and Friday as is common, there is no reason your Thursday run can't be a little bit on the faster side, especially if you are training for the longer distances and aren't ripping hard 400 meter repeats. Every run can't be either a workout or easy run if you want to maximize your potential. You need to have a few days mixed in here or there where you open it up a little bit.

Raysharp001 wrote:

This thread, and the thinking that you should only do "recovery days" and "workout" days, is so messed up. I don't feel like explaining why, as I have a lot to do today, but the so-called "moderate run," a steady state or progression tempo run slightly slower than anaerobic threshold, is the most important workout for distance runners. Super slow recovery days as needed and before and after races are okay, but this notion that you need to jog slowly 4-5 days a week and then run some kind of "workout" that is supposedly targeting a specific "energy system " is ridiculous. Run a lot of miles and gradually run them faster on average over the years as you progress. That's the foundation.

100% correct

It's okay, as long as you do it with friends. Remember the old saying from coach: There's no 'i' in 'spontanious'.

Raysharp001 wrote:

This thread, and the thinking that you should only do "recovery days" and "workout" days, is so messed up. I don't feel like explaining why, as I have a lot to do today, but the so-called "moderate run," a steady state or progression tempo run slightly slower than anaerobic threshold, is the most important workout for distance runners. Super slow recovery days as needed and before and after races are okay, but this notion that you need to jog slowly 4-5 days a week and then run some kind of "workout" that is supposedly targeting a specific "energy system " is ridiculous. Run a lot of miles and gradually run them faster on average over the years as you progress. That's the foundation.

Another who agrees with this. Perfectly put.

Nothing wrong with the moderate run as long as the pace is easy/aerobic.