Western States transgender policy seems to be a good one

Just writing in to offer support for this view. Especially the comment that ". . . Western States has crafted a thoughtful policy. There is no perfect answer, but this policy could serve as a model for many other events".

Simply because some male runners slowed down 10% when dowsed with female hormones, this is taken as a baseline?

Here's an official statement from USA Powerlifting, who recently stopped Minnesota's JayCee Cooper from attempting to participate as female.

Q – Why do you not allow transgender women?

A – ... Men naturally have a larger bone structure, higher bone density, stronger connective tissue and higher muscle density than women. These traits, even with reduced levels of testosterone do not go away. While MTF may be weaker and less muscle than they once were, the biological benefits given them at birth still remain over than of a female.

The second area involves the participation of male to female competitors. Through analysis the impact of maturation in the presence naturally occurring androgens as the level necessary for male development, significant advantages are had, including but not limited to increased body and muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, and connective tissue. These advantages are not eliminated by reduction of serum androgens such as testosterone ...

missing information wrote:

So, you know what the performance difference is between a runner before transition and after?

It's 10-12%, and that also has been studied and documented extensively.

Please provide links the studies.

I’m glad you appreciated the article but most people won’t read it, so allow me to say that not all advantages will go away with hormone therapy; height for instance, won’t change. Trans women distance runners, however, should get 10-12% slower after 1 year of hormone therapy, so Kipchoge would actually be 13-15 minutes slower.

The drug use part of the policy is aimed at the spironolactone that trans women take as an an anti androgen, the drug is also used by dopers as a masking agent. Trans men, of course, take T.

We aren't obligated to let you cheat just so you feel better, sorry. Sometimes in life you don't get what you want. You have many opportunities in life. Competing for prizes in a woman's division without hormone treatment or female DNA is not one of those opportunities.

From the article linked above, studies showing that age-graded performance stayed the same, VO2 max decreased by 17% and 15% after beginning HRT, and pointing to a future study that will have a larger sample size:

Doesn't pass the smell test.

If the main performance difference between men and women really was just hormone therapy then the world records wouldn't still be 10-12% apart as they are now. Even doped to the gills the eastern block and Chinese women were not knocking on the door of the men's records.

So, one study of a single person?

PubMed link?

This seems like a fair enough policy.

show your work wrote:

So, one study of a single person?

PubMed link?

plan to monitor roughly 20 men and 20 women as they transition. The largest study of its kind, it will recruit subjects from a London-based gender clinic and enlist the expertise of endocrinologists, muscle physiologists, and mental health professionals, among others. The undertaking will be enormous, Harper admits. "We're going to need help," she told the Doncaster audience. Pending research funding from the U.K. government, the study will begin in 2019.

And likely it will be from the "science" budget, and not the specific gender studies set-asides.

Pls Fund Us! (it's not a racket, trust us!) wrote:

plan to monitor roughly 20 men and 20 women as they transition. The largest study of its kind, it will recruit subjects from a London-based gender clinic and enlist the expertise of endocrinologists, muscle physiologists, and mental health professionals, among others. The undertaking will be enormous, Harper admits. "We're going to need help," she told the Doncaster audience. Pending research funding from the U.K. government, the study will begin in 2019.

And likely it will be from the "science" budget, and not the specific gender studies set-asides.

Clearly this "study" will have problems with selection bias (i.e. not a randomized population).

At least they have mental health professionals involved.

death of female sports wrote:

Not surprising the male benevolent dictators would take this approach. This is not right for the female athletes, it isn't unlike competing against someone who had the advantages of doping etc. There are skeletal differences that are not changed by hormones. I believe you should have XY chromosomes to compete as a female. This is totally wrong for female athletics!!

Well I agree that it's best that they never be eligible for any professional sports. I mean a 7 foot tall WNBA player would be a real, real problem.

I don't really care about it enough at some local 45 place age group thing.

But their rule is certainly better than what we are getting in CT right now where you are viewed as a bigot if you are trying to stop humans with penises from winning the girls state track meet.

This policy seems to be the worst of all options.

1) Only those who are "good" (fast enough) will be outed

So what incentive does a trans-athlete have to excel, when it will lead to is a dystopian investigation?

2) Those who aren't in top 10 won't be

For others, vividly being trans is part of the goal, to ensure that trans is not hidden on the outskirts of society. But now WS will only publicize trans-athletes if they are top 10? The rest will just be a list, some of cis-women and some of trans-women, mixing them and not giving credit to the enormous obstacles trans have to overcome.

Somehow, I'm not surprised LRC.com is in favor of it.

A better system: allow ANYONE to be denoted as female/male/trans/cis as they please. (Or more options too) But Don't and NEVER have "gender challenges" against the winners simply because they are the best. This creates a 2-tier system that has its roots in apartheid and segregation.

Also hormone therapy rule is a farce, as a male doesn't need to take hormones to lower test... Simply overtraining/ under eating can create the same effect

rojo wrote:

But their rule is certainly better than what we are getting in CT right now where you are viewed as a bigot if you are trying to stop humans with penises from winning the girls state track meet.

But you're OK with them losing the girls state track meet (not top 10 in Western States)? What about the girls they displaced from the team to be on it in the first place? And the scholarships potential too.

Pls Fund Us! (it's not a racket, trust us!) wrote:

show your work wrote:

So, one study of a single person?

PubMed link?

plan to monitor roughly 20 men and 20 women as they transition. The largest study of its kind, it will recruit subjects from a London-based gender clinic and enlist the expertise of endocrinologists, muscle physiologists, and mental health professionals, among others. The undertaking will be enormous, Harper admits. "We're going to need help," she told the Doncaster audience. Pending research funding from the U.K. government, the study will begin in 2019.

And likely it will be from the "science" budget, and not the specific gender studies set-asides.

So, the science is "settled" because of a study that hasn't even happened yet?

Supposedly the Gay Games has a Transgender division, why not Western States do this too?

show your work wrote:

Pls Fund Us! (it's not a racket, trust us!) wrote:

plan to monitor roughly 20 men and 20 women as they transition. The largest study of its kind, it will recruit subjects from a London-based gender clinic and enlist the expertise of endocrinologists, muscle physiologists, and mental health professionals, among others. The undertaking will be enormous, Harper admits. "We're going to need help," she told the Doncaster audience. Pending research funding from the U.K. government, the study will begin in 2019.

And likely it will be from the "science" budget, and not the specific gender studies set-asides.

So, the science is "settled" because of a study that hasn't even happened yet?

Joanna Harper got published in Science which is a well-known quasi-scientific propaganda outlet, recently famous for its intersectionality with SJW causes.

Currently, its webpage has: Choose your champion for this year’s ‘Dance Your Ph.D.’ contest! (11th annual).

There is a "Science" subclass at sciencemag.org (and indeed this has a semblance of rigour), but the article in question was classified as "News" (e.g., currently they are pining about Rookies in USA Congress being on science committees).

Another layer of protection is if it has a penis, it cannot enter as a female. That alone will white out 80% of the fakers.