Western States transgender policy seems to be a good one

the world as we know it wrote:

The policy is based on the false premise that a male taking hormone therapy for at least a year is on a level playing field with women. This just isn't true. If you took Kipchoge and put him on hormone therapy you think he is going to run 15 minutes slower? Sorry no.

Well, it seems implausible, but it might be true. Runner's World did an amazing feature article about 20 years ago, which I haven't been able to find online, about a female transgender competitive runner. As a male, this runner had been very active in a running club and in road races, and consistently scored at the 75% level in age-graded scores, which was about 18:00 for 5k.

She transitioned to female by taking hormones and presenting as a woman, but didn't have any surgery. After about six months of hormones, she did her first race as a woman, a 5k. The article details how she ran the race hard just as always, felt the same as always, and kicked through the finish line thinking, "nice, I think I might have just made it under 18-flat." And then she was truly shocked to see that her finishing time was actually 20:30! Which came out to... 75% as an age-graded score. So her performance as a woman taking hormones was equivalent to her performance as a man (not better).

I could have some details wrong because I read the article 20 years ago, but to me it is quite solid evidence that hormone replacement therapy has a strong effect on race performance. I won't deny that the decades of testosterone and pre-existing muscles can help, but I think the effect would dissipate within a year or two. I'd certainly much rather race against a woman who is trans than a woman who is doping!

You are correct Jaime regarding the science being. There are clear advantages, in the case of running, where a man who chooses to become and compete as a woman has over other women. Science has settled this. I don't judge you, hate you, or even dislike you. I hope you find peace and happiness in your life being whoever you are. I don't think it's fair for biologic men to compete as women. I think you should be able to run at the events you want. I hope that we can create a separate category for those like yourself. Best wishes.

That’s a good policy. I know that after 14 months of HRT this old sub-3 over 50 yo marathoner is now running 8 to 9+ mpm.

If you haven’t taken spironolactone and Estradiol, you would be amazed.

LRC idiots wrote:

Someone's gender is accepted at face value but anyone finishing top 10 or scoring in an age group needs to show they received hormonal treatment for at least a year.

Just wow. First you delete the thread that was going against your narrative, and then you don't even get the facts right??

Hint: the word "needs" means something...

As you quoted, the actual policy says "WSER in its sole discretion will determine whether there is a legitimate basis for the challenge." Parsing this with more care than what passes for journalism these days: 1) They can simply IGNORE every "challenge" w/o demanding any such proof of hormonality (a dubious condition in the first place IMO). 2) On the other hand, they do give a "review process", but in fact they COULD simply delete someone (declare non-compliant) WITHOUT going through this. As they say themselves (multiple times), it's their "sole discretion" in the end...

The same is restated in the very next line you quote: In the event of a challenge, WSER may ask ... There's just simply no "needs" here (as LRC journalists imagine), it is ENTIRELY at the WSER discretion to decide. E.g. have you (in your journalistic due diligence) investigated who's on the WSER "gender theory" committee? Stacking the deck to come to desired outcomes is a real possibility. All the language about hormones and this-and-that is just window dressing - it gives the outlines of a protocol, but there's no mandate for them to actually follow it (again, at their sole discretion).

The final decision regarding the entrant’s gender status shall be within the sole discretion of WSER

Ddnbb, the fact that a man who once ran 18 for a 5k, then 20:30 as a female and both of those results are 75% is purely anecdotal and a slightly small sample size.

This is an issue in the sports world primarily because there have been people who did not dominate in their biological gender but did dominate as soon as they switched competition. The hormones do have an effect, positive or negative, which was clear from Caster Semenya's ability to dominate (2009-?, 2017-18?) with very high natural testosterone and inability to dominate on testosterone suppressant therapy (2013-16?).

So in the other words the policy is:

1) No one can complain about slow (non top-10 or age-awards) people

2) Anyone can complain about fast people, but at our sole discretion we'll decide it somehow

2a) we might use hormonal evidence, or you can give us docs ahead of time, and we'll try not to leak anything

Somehow, this policy doesn't give me a lot of reassurance.

Buckling at the finish wrote:

2a) ... you can give us docs ahead of time, and we'll try not to leak anything

Somehow, this policy doesn't give me a lot of reassurance.

And what are they doing to ensure Russian hackers (Fancy Bears) don't obtain the info?

broken arrow wrote:

You are either a male or female at birth, regardless of what crazy plastic surgery or hormonal therapy you have had.

Absolutely right. This is the starting point for any discussion. Those born with an intersex condition are an exception to this objective standard. Transgender is merely altering the birth sex through disfiguring surgery and disruptive hormonal therapy. A transgender woman for example is always a transgender woman, He never becomes a woman. Therefore, I think the approach should be to include separate divisions for male, female, transgender male, transgender femaie, intersex, etc.

broken arrow wrote:

You are either a male or female at birth, regardless of what crazy plastic surgery or hormonal therapy you have had.

broken arrow, are you a race director? Is this your event:

If so, do you have a transgender policy in place or can we use your comments on this thread as a guideline?

It's a nice collection of paragraphs and experience and wonder, but how does this relate to the WS TG policy? Particularly as you specifically note the "no longer competitive" (presumably also in age classes) descriptor.

Should celebrating human diversity urge us to increase the number of gender classes (beyond 2)? Why keep the male/female split (in competition), if gender is so much more than that?

Someone started a thread about Western States' transgender policy that was entirely misleading as it implied a biological man could run as a woman with no proof required. ...

Here is their policy.

Policy Enforcement

A runner’s self-declared gender at registration will be accepted at face value. ...

OK, where was the "entirely misleading" part of the previous thread? It seems to me the Policy is exactly what you say: a man can run as a woman with no proof required...

Sure, a man can't win (finish top 10 or age-group) as a woman w/o the possibility of going through a gender complaint process, but it's "entirely misleading" to conflate running with winning, no?

NeedQuantitativeInfo wrote:

This is not true at all for a not insignificant percentage of the population and you can easily find information that disproves your claim if you actually were interested in knowing the details.

What's the insignificant percentage?

Seems to be in the range of 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 at birth. The test of "significance" would be whether or not the numbers would support an additional category for athletic events, and that would be an insignificant number even if we include those with gender dysphoria. The reason we have transgenders trying to compete in the female category is because their numbers are insignificant. That's also a fair reason to accommodate their desire to compete. I would have a separate parallel method of providing recognition or medals (never just deny them altogether), and unlike some other sports this would seem possible in running. However, I think at the elite level we need always to recognize the "pure xx" winner as a champion, even if it means issuing additional medals or titles.

You are correct J wrote:

You are correct Jaime regarding the science being. There are clear advantages, in the case of running, where a man who chooses to become and compete as a woman has over other women. Science has settled this. I don't judge you, hate you, or even dislike you. I hope you find peace and happiness in your life being whoever you are. I don't think it's fair for biologic men to compete as women. I think you should be able to run at the events you want. I hope that we can create a separate category for those like yourself. Best wishes.

Can anyone cite scientific studies concerning performance relating to transgender athletes? Without more information, I am inclined to think a separate category may unfortunately be the most fair way to deal with this issue. However, I would love to see studies that shatter my inclination.

I strongly disagree with the notion that if it doesn't impact you, you should not comment.

Everybody has the right, maybe even the obligation, to speak up against injustice when it occurs. it's interesting to me that some folks who come across as advocates for social justice are suggesting others should not comment or care about the policy.

Regarding WS "sole discretion". Of course, the policy will state that it is their sole discretion. Every race has a policy that "decisions of the RD are final". Do expect them to say "please sue us if you don't like the policy"?

The policy strikes me as reasonable and I support it. I've run WS once and this only encourages me to run it again. Well done WS.

Hormone therapy won't lead to this newly transitioned person to menstruate... A performance inhibitor for women.

Much simpler approach - two groups based on chromosomes:

1. The "Y" group (if you have a Y you're in this group)

2. The "No Y" group (everyone else)

For what it’s worth, I used to run races at an age graded level in the high 70s and low 80s. After 14 months of Spironolactone and Estradiol, I’m lucky to run in the low 70s age graded for a woman.

There’s this article in Science:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including?r3f_986=https://www.google.com/

KatherineR wrote:

For what it’s worth, I used to run races at an age graded level in the high 70s and low 80s. After 14 months of Spironolactone and Estradiol, I’m lucky to run in the low 70s age graded for a woman.

There’s this article in Science:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including?r3f_986=https://www.google.com/

Thank you, that's fascinating. The evidence definitely seems to support that hormone therapy eliminates competitive advantages.