duha2341 wrote:
Shouldn't everyone be able to run 44 seconds slower per mile than their marathon pace without much effort? What do you expect?
Basically equivalent to Eliud Kipchoge jogging a 5:23 mile for his long run.
duha2341 wrote:
Shouldn't everyone be able to run 44 seconds slower per mile than their marathon pace without much effort? What do you expect?
Basically equivalent to Eliud Kipchoge jogging a 5:23 mile for his long run.
duha2341 wrote:
Shouldn't everyone be able to run 44 seconds slower per mile than their marathon pace without much effort? What do you expect?
Depends on how far you run.
If Jordan ran that for 50 miles, her time would be 5:06.
Not crazy at all; she needs these kinds of runs plus some 27-30 mile runs to really "bust a good one", in my opinion...
Note- in my first marathon in '85 in Louisville KY went through 20 on 6 minute pace and then I didn't hit the wall...it fell on me; took me over an hour to cover the last 6.2; learned a lot that day.
DC12 wrote:
...
Easy has multiple meanings unless you are really pedantic about your training paces. 10 miles in 70 minutes and 10 miles in 80 minutes will both have the same "10 miles easy" entry in my training diary.
This.
It's easy for her, SO WHAT?
apparently hard or "crazy" for the rest of the mere mortal losers here. Get a life....LOSERS
Let me put it this way wrote:
duha2341 wrote:
Shouldn't everyone be able to run 44 seconds slower per mile than their marathon pace without much effort? What do you expect?
Basically equivalent to Eliud Kipchoge jogging a 5:23 mile for his long run.
Which would be a non-story
23 miles at MP + 44 seconds/mile is not "easy."
End thread.
Hanzo wrote:
However, keep in mind Jordan is probably the MOST slow-twitch runner ever. Her PRs of 1500, 3k, 5k and 10k are disgustingly slow in comparison to her Marathon/HM times. No matter which calculator I use (Daniels, Tinman, etc) the times of 15:30 and 31:40 seem to be much worse than her 2:21 marathon. Hell, even Gwen Jorgensen ran faster 5k/10k but is more than 15 mins slower in the full marathon.
Being so extremely on the slow-twitch side muscle-fiber wise makes an easy run at this pace much more manageable for her than for a balanced runner. A fast-twitch runner would have to run considerably slower on her easy days in relation.
That's interesting. Based on my PRs I'm also very slow twitch (2:41:30 marathon, 1:19:15 half, 36:40 10K, never even ran a dedicated 5K faster than best 5K split of my PB half). However when I go for a long run with people who are in same 2:40-2:50 marathon pb range I often find it hard to hold the pace (6:45 to 7) despite being one of the faster marathoners in the group. Does this mean I'm slow twitch and also very lazy?
Slow Twitch Hobbyjogger wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
However, keep in mind Jordan is probably the MOST slow-twitch runner ever. Her PRs of 1500, 3k, 5k and 10k are disgustingly slow in comparison to her Marathon/HM times. No matter which calculator I use (Daniels, Tinman, etc) the times of 15:30 and 31:40 seem to be much worse than her 2:21 marathon. Hell, even Gwen Jorgensen ran faster 5k/10k but is more than 15 mins slower in the full marathon.
Being so extremely on the slow-twitch side muscle-fiber wise makes an easy run at this pace much more manageable for her than for a balanced runner. A fast-twitch runner would have to run considerably slower on her easy days in relation.
That's interesting. Based on my PRs I'm also very slow twitch (2:41:30 marathon, 1:19:15 half, 36:40 10K, never even ran a dedicated 5K faster than best 5K split of my PB half). However when I go for a long run with people who are in same 2:40-2:50 marathon pb range I often find it hard to hold the pace (6:45 to 7) despite being one of the faster marathoners in the group. Does this mean I'm slow twitch and also very lazy?
Hard to say. Slow-twitch runners can run long runs both longer and faster than fast-twitch runners of the same level. Fast-twitch runners need to be extremely careful with long runs so they don't run themselves into the ground with them (and then it takes days for them to get back up again due to glycogen depletion). Why? Their fat burning isn't as well developed and their slow-twitch muscle fibers fatigue much earlier, causing them to switch to FT and produce more lactate.
For more info, read Magness posts/book/podcasts or the famous debate here on letsrun with Canova comparing the training of Lopes and Mamede (one ST, one more FT, completely different training but very similar 10k-HM times).
You might not be as slow-twitch as you think you are. You never trained/raced a 5k all-out. I assume you could break 35 min 10k and 17 min 5k if you train for these events and race them all-out without holding anything back.
Hanzo wrote:
Slow Twitch Hobbyjogger wrote:
That's interesting. Based on my PRs I'm also very slow twitch (2:41:30 marathon, 1:19:15 half, 36:40 10K, never even ran a dedicated 5K faster than best 5K split of my PB half). However when I go for a long run with people who are in same 2:40-2:50 marathon pb range I often find it hard to hold the pace (6:45 to 7) despite being one of the faster marathoners in the group. Does this mean I'm slow twitch and also very lazy?
Hard to say. Slow-twitch runners can run long runs both longer and faster than fast-twitch runners of the same level. Fast-twitch runners need to be extremely careful with long runs so they don't run themselves into the ground with them (and then it takes days for them to get back up again due to glycogen depletion). Why? Their fat burning isn't as well developed and their slow-twitch muscle fibers fatigue much earlier, causing them to switch to FT and produce more lactate.
For more info, read Magness posts/book/podcasts or the famous debate here on letsrun with Canova comparing the training of Lopes and Mamede (one ST, one more FT, completely different training but very similar 10k-HM times).
You might not be as slow-twitch as you think you are. You never trained/raced a 5k all-out. I assume you could break 35 min 10k and 17 min 5k if you train for these events and race them all-out without holding anything back.
^ This
Hasay's is a 2:20 marathoner with a 5k PR of 15:28, and 10k PR of 31:39, she's clearly slow twitch
A long run like this isn't "easy" for her, she's working a bit, but it's not taxing by any means nor is it reaching that steady state territory either. She will recover from this easy, I'll put it like that. I guess it's 1:10 above her 5k pace, but when you put it in terms of 44 seconds above marathon pace, it doesn't seem nearly as bad. Think to yourself, how many marathoners have a 23 seconds difference between 5k and marathon pace? For most people this is the difference between 5k and HM pace.
rupp-certified saladbar, or shaken bravey syndrome? wrote:
23 miles at MP + 44 seconds/mile is not "easy."
End thread.
Maybe it's not easy for you, but for Jordan and other competitive runners, it is in fact easy.
I'm confused. Shouldn't doing 23 miles (less than 26.2) in 44 seconds over your race pace be easy for everyone? I mean ask anyone who has run a marathon and trained for it if they are okay with the idea of running 44 seconds slower than race pace and for a few miles shorter than race distance. I'm pretty sure everyone will be okay with that workout. You still have to put the work in, but nobody is going to act like it's an impossible workout.
Shoebacca wrote:
I'm confused. Shouldn't doing 23 miles (less than 26.2) in 44 seconds over your race pace be easy for everyone? I mean ask anyone who has run a marathon and trained for it if they are okay with the idea of running 44 seconds slower than race pace and for a few miles shorter than race distance. I'm pretty sure everyone will be okay with that workout. You still have to put the work in, but nobody is going to act like it's an impossible workout.
The reason for your confusion is you assume this forum is full of people who have trained seriously for marathons. It's not. It's full of fitness runners, hobbyjoggers, and people who think they know it all because they have a decent 3200 time.
Shoebacca wrote:
I'm confused. Shouldn't doing 23 miles (less than 26.2) in 44 seconds over your race pace be easy for everyone? I mean ask anyone who has run a marathon and trained for it if they are okay with the idea of running 44 seconds slower than race pace and for a few miles shorter than race distance. I'm pretty sure everyone will be okay with that workout. You still have to put the work in, but nobody is going to act like it's an impossible workout.
nobody said it was an impossible workout?
I don't think Kipchoge running 23 miles at 5:23 pace sounds impossible, either, but it sounds faster than an "easy" run even if it's well within abilities.
Shoebacca wrote:
I'm confused. Shouldn't doing 23 miles (less than 26.2) in 44 seconds over your race pace be easy for everyone? I mean ask anyone who has run a marathon and trained for it if they are okay with the idea of running 44 seconds slower than race pace and for a few miles shorter than race distance. I'm pretty sure everyone will be okay with that workout. You still have to put the work in, but nobody is going to act like it's an impossible workout.
MP+44 second is faster than I would self-select for a long run at easy pace. Probably more like 60-90 seconds over MP. I could certainly do the long run at MP+44 but it would be harder than easy. If I was going to do that, I'd rather mix in some MP or tempo pace to get to MP+44 rather than steadily running MP+44 from the start.
I train reasonably hard for marathons (not by elite standards) 70-80 MPW average over final 12 weeks. A little less leading up to the final 12.
She’s bulimic
sanchobaile wrote:
Shoebacca wrote:
I'm confused. Shouldn't doing 23 miles (less than 26.2) in 44 seconds over your race pace be easy for everyone? I mean ask anyone who has run a marathon and trained for it if they are okay with the idea of running 44 seconds slower than race pace and for a few miles shorter than race distance. I'm pretty sure everyone will be okay with that workout. You still have to put the work in, but nobody is going to act like it's an impossible workout.
nobody said it was an impossible workout?
I don't think Kipchoge running 23 miles at 5:23 pace sounds impossible, either, but it sounds faster than an "easy" run even if it's well within abilities.
You're still wrong. 5:23 pace is easy for Kipchoge.
Not "hard but possible." Easy.
ncrecuvuer wrote:
Hasay's is a 2:20 marathoner with a 5k PR of 15:28, and 10k PR of 31:39, she's clearly slow twitch
A long run like this isn't "easy" for her, she's working a bit, but it's not taxing by any means nor is it reaching that steady state territory either. She will recover from this easy, I'll put it like that. I guess it's 1:10 above her 5k pace, but when you put it in terms of 44 seconds above marathon pace, it doesn't seem nearly as bad. Think to yourself, how many marathoners have a 23 seconds difference between 5k and marathon pace? For most people this is the difference between 5k and HM pace.
The fallacy there is that it was pretty obvious Hasay could have run sub 15 and 30:30 just based on her 1:07:55 half. Her 2:20:57 was a better effort than that.
a long long time ago..... wrote:
ncrecuvuer wrote:
Hasay's is a 2:20 marathoner with a 5k PR of 15:28, and 10k PR of 31:39, she's clearly slow twitch
A long run like this isn't "easy" for her, she's working a bit, but it's not taxing by any means nor is it reaching that steady state territory either. She will recover from this easy, I'll put it like that. I guess it's 1:10 above her 5k pace, but when you put it in terms of 44 seconds above marathon pace, it doesn't seem nearly as bad. Think to yourself, how many marathoners have a 23 seconds difference between 5k and marathon pace? For most people this is the difference between 5k and HM pace.
The fallacy there is that it was pretty obvious Hasay could have run sub 15 and 30:30 just based on her 1:07:55 half. Her 2:20:57 was a better effort than that.
I'm not sure about 30:30 but I agree she can crush her current PRs. Even her 1:07:55 was not optimal conditions, jet lagged and right before her marathon taper started.
a long long time ago..... wrote:
The fallacy there is that it was pretty obvious Hasay could have run sub 15 and 30:30 just based on her 1:07:55 half. Her 2:20:57 was a better effort than that.
Her 67:55 half marathon was a 5:11 pace.