3 teenagers who are way ahead of Alan Webb

Vipam;

Yes, we understand what your original question was, but you must understand that we can't simply bypass the examples you used to introduce it.

Like it or not, there is a long history of questionable birth records in Kenya - indeed most of West Africa. (Witness the chaos during voter registration under the Moi government earlier this year)Is this a deliberate ploy, in order to dominate junior athletics? I doubt it. I suspect it's more a factor of a mismanaged heath-care system, disorganized central governments and widely dispersed populations.

Your anger at not being able to frame the debate in the manner you wish is understandable, but please don't put it down to the stupidity of the rest of us. Referring to those who disagree with you as simpletons (and not being able to spell it correctly) says a lot more about you than it does about us.

Dropping references to over-achieving Kenyan juniors, and then not being able to accept legitimate questioning as to the veracity of their ages, is naive in the extreme. The fact that the doubters (and I am one of them) have no 'proof' is irrelevant. I have as much proof to doubt their ages as you do to believe them. (Your statement that he IAAF 'cleared up the problem a couple of years ago' is no more valid than anything the doubters have said). The fact that the IAAF recognizes a record doesn't mean it's morally legitimate -- otherwise we'd all be agreeing about the Chinese, FloJo and Komen. We don't.

Those who accepted your examples as fact were able to answer your question. Those who didn't could not.

That's not so hard to understand, is it?

Martin

You are correct Martin everyone have the right to agree

or disagree with any threads posted! The marks the african

juniors post are a little more realistic than the Chinese!

The Kenyan juniors posted their times in IAAF meets; therefore, they are a little easier to ratifiy.

It was stated earlier that I favor Africans over Americans; however, that is not true! My favorite athletes

in no special order:

1. Khalid Khannouchi

2. Deena Drossin

3. Paula Radcliffe

4. Catherine Ndereba

5. Hicham

6. Meb

7. Geb

8. Jonathon Edwards

9. D. Tulu

10. Wilson Kipketer

I do however like individuals who have dominated their sport or show promise in the future! (Race is not a factor)

I think it would be best to ignore the issue of junior records in this day and age. The Kenyan athletes themselves have said on occasion that they don't know how old they are. Sure, this isn't true for all of them. However, even though blacks tend to mature more quickly than whites, a look at some of the "juniors" from E. Africa (pics on the IAAF website, etc.) definitely show guys closer to 25 than 20 in many cases.

Just keep tabs on on the fastest performers and see how they develop. As to it being doubtful that Kenyans would lie in order to dominate junior athletics, why? It is very possible that their federation could feel that competition could be psyched out early on if the juniors appear unbeatable.

Too many people are busy defending Africans, making them sacrosanct, while putting down Alan Webb out of sheer jealousy.

Does anyone know if any of these runners listen to Zamfir? We may be on to something here.

Why do people keep on hitting on the Kenyan age thing, surely if its a problem in Kenya then its a problem in Ethiopia, Tanzania, Uganda etc.. but more importantly Kenyans are the ones who go on to be successful so surely they are the most legitimate? They are not JUST competitive at junior level. This is the crux of the argument, if the Kenyans were ONLY good at junior level and had no descent seniors I could understand the argument, but they aren't, surely it makes sense that the country with the worlds greatest distance runners is going to also be the country with the worlds greatest junior distnace runners its common sense isn't it?

That is the most logically response on this thread and

very hard to agrue against.

NuffSaid

The Kenyans have great juniors. The problem is, they keep sending senior runners to junior events. It's that simple. Sure, a country with a lot of great runners will have great juniors, but they should send juniors to junior meets, not someone like Ismael Kurui, say, that the Kenyans claimed was 17 when he burst on the world scene. Kurui's own remarks, and those of teammates (and father/brother .... watzisname?) and fellow Kenyans revealed Kurui to be 24. Even Ngeny is a couple of years older than what is claimed, according again to that priest at St. Patrick's. I think his name is brother Joseph. I'm sure some of you know for sure. He said Ngeny was at the junior age limit while attending HS. The Kenyans had him listed as a junior two years after that.

I agree with 800 fan, keep track of the best runners. People develop at different rates anyway.

BTW - the Ethiopians have been questioned on this too. They had a 10k runner setting jr. records a while back, and it turned out he was closer to 30 than 20, as most observers felt anyway.

I find it very interesting when I read all these posts bashing American Distance runners, when for the most part the people trash talking are American distance runner or Americans. So if you feel there needs to be a change in American distant running then you do, show us how to compete instead of complaining on why we suck. It really bothers me to see people making post trying to take away what Alan Webb has done. Alan did something about it instead of sitting on the Letsrun.com message boards and posting on how American distance runners are doing so pourly. I believe you guys are expecting a change overnight. Its gona take sometime to get the american distance runners back to the front pack.

And as for the whole discussion on the real age of Kenyan/African runners. I read all these posts about how they are 5 years older than they actually say, but does this matter. Whether they are 18 or 23 you still have to compete with them. So are you saying that a true 18 year old kenyan still wouldn't beat an 18 year old american?

The continuing onslaught of the african junior is very

tiresome and based on heresay, ignorance, and hatered(that

juniors could be that good)! I really would like for the

Americans to win more gold medals at the junior and senior

events; however, slandering the achievements of another

nation without out proof is ridiculous. The age of the

kenyans may have been a problem five to ten years ago, but

to think they could never correct it is wrong. I guess

you naysayers think the IAAF just let anyone compete without

some type of age evidence? YEAH RIGHT!!!

Vipam

Time for ME to move on from this subject for good.

In today's politically correct times, the IAAF lets third world countries skate.

Lol!