Crazy how road race entrance fees have increased!

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5 years ago 01/23/2019 5:42pm EST

re: Old Man Runner

Old Man Runner wrote:
Greed by all parties involved.
The runners want more for their money (post-race, medals, tech shirts, clocks every mile, chip timing, etc).
Municipalities involved charge an arm and a leg for permit fees and "overtime" police rates. (This means higher cost to the runners...and now you are into the whole "If I pay more, I expect more" mentality of the runners).
More RDs in it for the $ than before.

Anyone have numbers on the profit margins for races across the board?

Yes, cities raised the fees charged. I do remember races in my hometown where the "parade fee" (as it was lumped in with parades) did not come close to covering the cost of the police. In essence the taxpayers were subsidizing the road races. I seriously doubt that money was made back in anyway.

There is an expectation by the consumer for more such as a nice T shirt (highly subjective) or medals. The cost of tech shirts has come way, way down. They might be as cheap now as cotton shirts were in the 70s (adjusted for inflation).

Chip timing costs have come down some, but the time savings and getting the results right and fast (although errors can still occur) is worth it.

Every time one of these threads comes up, I encourage those complaining to go out and put on a low cost race to see what the market is. Do a race that charges $10 with no shirt, no chip timing, no water stations, nothing at the end. A trophy only for the top 3 overall finishers (let's be generous and go with men and women there). Get the course certified (a common complaint here so if you fail to do that then you failed).

Also, how many folks are you going to need to help? If you go without chip timing that likely means more personnel to pull tags and to sort times. God forbid you screw it up!

I wonder how many RDs are in it for the money. Seems like unless you have a really big event, the ROI is pretty poor.

But then, I wonder why people volunteer to work a race when the RD is making money?

5 years ago 01/23/2019 5:47pm EST

re: And Worse

And Worse wrote:
You haven't even mentioned that many races charge late fees as much as 8-9 months before the race, calling it "super early registration." Some races have 4-6 different deadlines. Of course these same races have a no refund/no transfers policy.

Is the fee really a "late fee" or just the regular fee and an earlier one was discounted.

There are good reasons to offer early bird incentives as it gives you as the RD a handle on how much of each item you need to order. If you do anything with the year on it, then those are things you can never use again and that means waste and a loss of revenue.

5 years ago 01/23/2019 5:52pm EST

re: Jimmy James

Jimmy James wrote:
What? I've certainly never seen bad spelling or grammar from our benevolent overlords on LetsRun.
While I'm pleased to say I snagged the early bird rate of $25 for a local 10K this morning, that's the exception. The gradual bloat of race fees is frustrating, and I'd gladly forsake another tech shirt or 5K Finisher's Medal to keep the prices down.
I think someone on here floated the idea of a "Throwback 5K" (or 10K, or 5 Mile, whatever)- eliminate all the frills and see if you can get it done for $10 a head. No chip timing, no dang finisher's medals, no DJ at the post-race party. It occurred to me just now for awards you could simply buy a half dozen used records from the 70's at the thrift store for a couple bucks each- first place gets first pick.

Race medal is $3 probably. T shirt with printing might be $8.

So yeah if the option were there to forego them you might save $10, but then the RD has to order them far enough in advance that he/she is guessing.

I encourage you to put on such a race and see how it does.

5 years ago 01/23/2019 5:55pm EST

re: d2xccoach

d2xccoach wrote:
Here's a little different take on things... The company I work for started up a no frills half marathon in 2007. We charged $12. No finisher medals, no awards, no shirts (if you wanted a shirt you had to pay extra). Accurate course (and flat/fast), water at the aid stations, quick results. Basically it was a glorified training run/club race kind of thing. We did provide a bus to the start because it was point to point and we got a local restaurant to supply post-race snacks for a super low price. We made a little money on the race but not very much. Only got 265 entrants the first year, 216 finishers.
For 5 years we kept the entry fee down and the race grew moderately - by year 5 we had just over 500 finishers. That's good, but in our biggest race we have almost 9000 runners. So we started asking around, why don't you guys come to our spring half marathon? The #1 reason we heard is that runners didn't think it was going to be a good race for such a low entry fee. So for 2012 we decided to bump the fee and see if that changed things. We went from $18 to $30. Really didn't add any amenities. Registration went from 610 to 1002, and we sold out in 5 days. We actually had to add a 2nd start wave 2 hours after the first wave, to accommodate demand (a lot of the race is on a bikepath so we don't have the width to put 1000 runners on the course at once). Over the next 4 years the race grew to 1800 entrants and we were still selling out, albeit not as fast as in 2012. Entry fee went up to about $40, still below market for a half marathon, and we have added some amenities over time (beer, food trucks, finisher bottle opener, chip timing) but I'd still call it a "low frills" race.
I too miss the days of $2 5k's, $5-$10 half marathons, $20 marathons!! Heck, when I started racing triathlons (I'm a fossil) the big national series was $40/race - good luck finding a tri entry for under $75 now. You would think people would want some lower priced races but from our experience that's not exactly the case, for the masses anyway.

It is amazing how the price of something changes the perception of it.

This is a great lesson in pricing in economics: you price something to optimize sales.

5 years ago 01/23/2019 6:04pm EST

re: FreeMarket

FreeMarket wrote:
It's called the free market.... just about any and every profession / service that can charge a higher price will do so (or be deemed an idiot, if they don't). Just like the poster above mentioned, if prices are kept low (to be nice or to "give back") the market usually decides that it must be an inferior product (and participation will decline).
Consider health care services... my wife and I are expecting a child (we have a number of kiddos), and the "standard care" for pregnancy and labor and delivery is nothing like it was when we had our first child. Now, they are doing ultrasounds on one of the fancy 3d imaging machines at least every other week. And, if you suggest that maybe it isn't necessary because billions were successfully born without multiple ultrasounds - even as recently as a few years ago, you are seen as a complete knucklehead. On the other hand, malpractice insurance for OB-gyns is sky high. So, I guess I have to live with and pay for the "extras" or find another way to have that baby. Maybe go the route of a doula and a bathtub delivery at home!
Just about everyone can look at another professional or service provider and deem their contribution to be worthless or consider them greedy. Are real estate agents really necessary? Isn't 3% of sales prices a bit much, especially as the cost of homes has increased so much? How about all the spreadsheet finance monkeys in corporate America. Are all of them needed and valuable for society (or even their company)? Hell no, and I should know having been one of them. What about public sector employees, do they provide service like they used to? I don't think so (everything is so bureaucratic), yet they get paid more than ever. How bout professional athletes, actors, or musicians? Why should they get paid tens of millions when you can watch young kids play or act for next to nothing? Is their contribution to society that great, or are they "greedy"?
At the end of the day, money talks and bullshit walks, so if you don't like the costs, then simply don't engage. Better yet, put on your own event and be the change you want to see in the world. A guy in my area does that... Accurate course and timing every month for $1. Yay - it's not that hard!
I also know a guy who, although his races are "expensive", he will comp you or arrange an easy bartering deal (easy for the runner) if you simply ask (because how is he supposed to know your economic situation). He loves the sport and doesn't want good runners priced out, but it would be nice if people understood economics and the free market... and understood that not everyone can have everything.

Your example of the "market" deciding that the low price is indicative of poor quality is not really a market force. Those are individuals making that irrational decision. I mean today a low cost race that is well run has plenty of opportunities to share that with others through social media.

One aspect to paying more is that there has not been the same increase in quality for some. If you only want an accurate course and time (and let's say cars kept off the roads), the you may not be seeing a doubling of the price as increasing the value. Maybe chip timing has improved the speed at which I get my results, but it has only marginally improved the accuracy. I can start and stop my watch and get pretty much the same information (it is a 5K or longer so I am not too concerned about 1/10th of a second.

In health care, a good argument can be made that I am paying more but that I am getting a better product. I might pay more for arthroscopic surgery than having my knee splayed open like a flounder, but I am also getting back to work and running substantially faster--and maybe in those days I never got back to running or skiing or whatever.

A CT or MRI might be costly, but it is way better than exploratory surgery. When was the last time you heard of anyone having "exploratory" surgery? (They might go in to get a biopsy but they already know what is there).

5 years ago 01/23/2019 6:12pm EST

re: John Utah

John Utah wrote:
Shoebacca wrote:
I mostly get bitter when I find out the races are by for-profit companies. I'm okay with a charity wanting to do something decent with the money. And while I believe there should be a healthy for-profit running segment I cringe that the for-profits get away with their exorbitant prices largely because many runners don't realize they are signing up to a for-profit race; they always have charity runner tie-ins to advertise, but in most cases those charities even had to pay for their spots in the race!
Corrigan Sports, I'm looking at you.
I don't know how charity got tied up into races. You go to the movies or out to dinner you don't expect that activity to be tied into a charity. Fill up with gas, air travel, grocery store, etc.

My take is that a lot of early races were put on my non-profit clubs like BAA.

Then in the running boom in the 70s charities saw how many people were running and thought it would be a great way to cash in. Charities do this with golf tournaments as well.

It is always a good question to ask if a race is aligned with a charity how much does it give to the charity. Some races might be "owned" by the charity (although it hires out the RD) and keep all the net. Some races say they give to some charity because the sense is folks care.

I do not think anyone cared what charity the last race I worked on the committee was for.

Some races give little. I remember Hood to Coast plastering all over the place its connection to a charity, but it was really tangential. The charity got little money directly from the race. (Talk about an event with expenses)!

5 years ago 01/23/2019 6:15pm EST

re: MeHereYouWhere?!

MeHereYouWhere?! wrote:
Senator Clay Davis wrote:
For example, if you want to just pay for the race entry, then that should be an option. Add on stupid finishers medals, t-shirts, and all that other crap on your own. Don't force everyone to pay for it because most of the serious runners don't give a flying fvck about that nonsense.
My new race is going to be the Spirit Airlines of running!
Race cost for 10k is $15
Want to submit your registration online? That will cost you an extra $3
Want to submit a paper registration? That will cost you an extra $6
Want day of registration? That will cost you an extra $10
Want a shirt? $12 during registration, $20 if you want to buy day of event
Want your time? $5
Want a medal? $15 during registration,$ 30 if you want to buy day of event
Want water? $4
Want to use port-a-pot before, during, after the race? $7
Want to park your car for the race? $10

Will you give the same great service as Spirit too?

5 years ago 01/23/2019 6:17pm EST

re: Paul2432

Paul2432 wrote:
The Bolder Boulder is fairly transparent about their costs.
http://bb10k.bolderboulder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/BB_PressKit_042318.pdf

That is really cool. Thanks for sharing.

5 years ago 01/23/2019 6:21pm EST

re: Harambe

Harambe wrote:
Didn't police depts realize they could start charging insane $$$ to close roads? Or am I off the mark here.
I didn't read the thread so apologies if it's been said.

The truth is that the races were not paying anywhere close to the cost of the services. Same with other events. Cities could not afford to absorb the costs when potholes needed to fixed and street lamps kept on (although turning off the street lamps really is not the worst idea in some places).

5 years ago 01/23/2019 6:22pm EST

re: NewtotheSouthSide

NewtotheSouthSide wrote:
How has prize money changed with the increased race registration? My guess is that it hasn't moved equally. Boston is the most lucrative marathon on the planet right? It would still be cool to me if they found a way to give prize money 25, 30, even 50 deep like a golf/tennis tournament or something.

Well if you can sponsors and tv rights to pony up money then you can offer more prize money.

5 years ago 01/23/2019 6:31pm EST

re: Itsjustgreed

Itsjustgreed wrote:
Yeah, perhaps I was a little aggressive in how I responded to the other guy who was claiming that high entry fees was ruining the sport and sucking all the joy of running away from him. I still think he is ridiculous, though. I would agree with you that RDs are more like CEOs than teachers, but more than that, they are simply event planners. Would it be smart for a CEO or event planner to take/earn less than what the market is willing to pay them? How in the world would this make any sense whatsoever? And, who would it help? You may want the RDs to help/pay more for elites, and maybe some won't even when they could, but they certainly will not if they can't. Being a race organizer may not be quite as lucrative as many on here believes. Further, I would say that many race directors, running store owners, and paid coaches are simply doing what you say you want for athletes - they were good athletes who have been figuring out a way to make money in a way that is at least tangentially related to running. Many if not most of them were decent runners, but the running wasn't going to pay the bills especially as they get older and have families (if it ever was), so what should they do now if they want to stay in the industry and make a living? Deciding to be poor and NOT responding to the market does not help anyone.
I am with you 100% that elites (and even what we would consider sub-elite) should make more money - Abso-freakin-lutely!! It is a travesty that guys who are good at ball sports earn what they do (no disrespect to the football, baseball, basketball players intended) when real athletes - distance runners - relatively earn peanuts. But, the answer isn't to gripe and complain, is it? We need to figure out a way. I know - KNOW - that if elites - people who had sway in the running community - approached an RD who I know and proposed a plan of how they were going to band together to promote and take his event to the next level, he would jump all over it and generously share the new profits with them. It would be pretty easy for them, and they would earn a lot more by doing it.
I get that it sucks that just running fast isn't enough. Apparently, the overall market doesn't care as much as you or I about fast distance running - again, totally sucks. But, it is what it is, and I think we should start thinking of ways to leverage the assets we have to make the most of it instead of crying about it.

How is it a "travesty" that people who play ball sports earn what they earn? Yes, you disrespected them when you called distance runners "real athletes". My definition of "athleticism" would put runners far down the pecking order.

The facts are clear that tv networks care nothing about running. Sponsors (outside of the shoe companies) care nothing about running because they do not see it as a good investment to move their product. The rules of the sport do not help, but even if USATF/IAAF let runners (and field athletes) plaster themselves with logos like a NASCAR driver or a cyclist, you still likely would not see many runners approaching the minimum in the team sports or tennis or golf. The companies want someone who can move their product and it does not always have to be the best player either. Anna Kournikova was (is?) a very good player, but her biggest years she was hauling in more from sponsors than either Williams sister ever did. (Okay that needs to be checked, but she was not suffering).

I cannot think of a time that I ever bought a pair of running shoes because so and so wore them, but I did at least try tennis rackets because a tennis player used it. My brother bought clubs because of who used them. NASCAR fans were the most brand loyal of all. If a driver switched detergent sponsors so did they.

5 years ago 01/23/2019 7:45pm EST

re: Far above the inflation rate

A few months back my mother sold the family home and while helping clean out the house for the move I found a box of mine with magazines from the 80's. In it was a Runner's World from late period with an article on how much race fees had increased because some marathons were charging $10.

5 years ago 01/23/2019 8:46pm EST

re: Far above the inflation rate

Comparing local road races I've done multiple times over the years, the trends are mostly negative:

* More expensive

* Less depth (e.g. median finish time) in the top 10

* Relocated to lamer courses

* Lamer prizes

However, there are some positive trends:

* Timers on bibs rather than ziptied on shoes

5 years ago 01/23/2019 8:49pm EST

re: Luv2Run

Without a doubt this is why I don't race anymore! I do my own time trials occasionally and it's great! Early morning on Saturday or Sunday with my Garmin, it's me against the watch...

5 years ago 01/23/2019 11:47pm EST

re: Far above the inflation rate

Most 5ks have a dinner plate sized medal for that major accomplishment of 3.1 miles. Gotta pay for that bling!

5 years ago 01/24/2019 6:20am EST

re: Old Man Runner

This and also most races are put on by companies, some of which have been acquired by PE companies (

https://www.pehub.com/2012/12/calera-capital-acquires-competitor-group/

Back in the day races were often hosted by non-profit running clubs. The dynamic changes when fiduciary duties to maximize profits are involved.

It is what it is. You can still find low key races that cost less than $5 pretty easily. To the extent that fast runners want to race other fast runners who only race in, and pay for, the "big" races (which are hosted by companies who are targeting the middle of the pack runner who wants a finishers medal and a facebook/insta post), we are all guilty of supporting this trend. You can always bandit the races if you don't want to pay.

5 years ago 01/24/2019 7:11am EST

re: Old Man Runner

Old Man Runner wrote:
Greed by all parties involved.
The runners want more for their money (post-race, medals, tech shirts, clocks every mile, chip timing, etc).
Municipalities involved charge an arm and a leg for permit fees and "overtime" police rates. (This means higher cost to the runners...and now you are into the whole "If I pay more, I expect more" mentality of the runners).
More RDs in it for the $ than before.

This hits the nail on the head.

5 years ago 01/24/2019 8:11am EST

re: Tristate

Someone mentioned New York Road Runners and singled out only their three most expensive races. (NYC Marathon, NYC Half and Brooklyn Half).

If you think about the security costs alone for these events in NYC, it starts to make sense.

They actually do a pretty good job putting on a bunch of affordable races for club runners (less than $20 sometimes for members). The entry fees seem to vary based on what it’s costing them for each location. For instance, the Staten Island Half was like $50 vs more than double that for NYC Half and Brooklyn Half.

Courses are certified and accurately marked, seeding is normally ok. New Balance shirts. Medals if that’s your thing.

Generally my issue is that they don’t have a lot of reasonably fast courses, other than maybe Brooklyn. But they actually introduced a new evening race 5k on May 4 (in NJ, not sure how that happened). It looks to be one of the fastest courses on the east coast with, presumably, good competition. Still a few too many turns, but pretty good. It’s $25 for members, $30 otherwise. Which I’m cool with.

5 years ago 01/24/2019 8:17am EST

re: San Diego Hobby Jogger

parkrun has it's own insurance. The courses are chosen for their avoidance of traffic, need for cops.

5 years ago 01/24/2019 8:47am EST

re: Itsjustgreed

Itsjustgreed wrote:
Yeah, perhaps I was a little aggressive in how I responded to the other guy who was claiming that high entry fees was ruining the sport and sucking all the joy of running away from him. I still think he is ridiculous, though. I would agree with you that RDs are more like CEOs than teachers, but more than that, they are simply event planners. Would it be smart for a CEO or event planner to take/earn less than what the market is willing to pay them? How in the world would this make any sense whatsoever? And, who would it help? You may want the RDs to help/pay more for elites, and maybe some won't even when they could, but they certainly will not if they can't. Being a race organizer may not be quite as lucrative as many on here believes. Further, I would say that many race directors, running store owners, and paid coaches are simply doing what you say you want for athletes - they were good athletes who have been figuring out a way to make money in a way that is at least tangentially related to running. Many if not most of them were decent runners, but the running wasn't going to pay the bills especially as they get older and have families (if it ever was), so what should they do now if they want to stay in the industry and make a living? Deciding to be poor and NOT responding to the market does not help anyone.
I am with you 100% that elites (and even what we would consider sub-elite) should make more money - Abso-freakin-lutely!! It is a travesty that guys who are good at ball sports earn what they do (no disrespect to the football, baseball, basketball players intended) when real athletes - distance runners - relatively earn peanuts. But, the answer isn't to gripe and complain, is it? We need to figure out a way. I know - KNOW - that if elites - people who had sway in the running community - approached an RD who I know and proposed a plan of how they were going to band together to promote and take his event to the next level, he would jump all over it and generously share the new profits with them. It would be pretty easy for them, and they would earn a lot more by doing it.
I get that it sucks that just running fast isn't enough. Apparently, the overall market doesn't care as much as you or I about fast distance running - again, totally sucks. But, it is what it is, and I think we should start thinking of ways to leverage the assets we have to make the most of it instead of crying about it.

This was a good, thoughtful post.

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