Could Tinman build an NCAA dynasty?

exactly! He's not achieved anywhere near the same results as those coaches, let alone other very successful coaches such as Ray Treacy, Franklin, the Powell's, Thomas over at Oregon, Van Hoy, Smith at Oklahoma State, and so many others. He can't even hold a candle to them.

Except they all ran some of their fastest times ever and Kosgei even ran the fastest time ever in the western hemisphere (and a PR). Emily Sisson ran a big PR and almost broke the AR. Most of them ran massive PRs such as Stinson, Tiernan, Walmsley, etc.

Are we still heralding the mythical Western Hemisphere record? Did she ask pick up the Female Heisman? Maybe Tinman can emcee the ceremony.

The bandwagon has crashed wrote:

Are we still heralding the mythical Western Hemisphere record? Did she ask pick up the Female Heisman? Maybe Tinman can emcee the ceremony.

We shouldn't worship her like a god, but if she can run the fastest time ever on this half of the globe then it destroys the theory that the conditions were bad.

John Utah wrote:

CU won a national championship in football. They’ve not been very good recently but they were in the not too distant past.

They only won that championship because some idiot ref threw a flag on nothing and destroyed the greatest kickoff return in college history by Notre Dame's "Rocket" Ismail.

Message Board Advice (to Tinman):

Do not start threads about you or your athletes.

Never brag about yourself and never read/respond to threads about you as coach.

If you are doing a good job, others will sing your praises / disparage you.

You don't need to do this to yourself, Schwartzy.

I get the reference, though at the time I thought the movie was boring as hell. But I don't think Tinman is Chance. I was one of the masters athletes coached by him that others are disparaging on this thread as a form of coaching hell, but Tom is a good coach. I'll agree that he's arrogant and not as groundbreaking as some would have it, but he's most definitely a very good coach and there are fewer of them in the college and elite ranks than we'd all like to think.

Chance the Gardner wrote:

Chance the Gardner

If you know who that is you’ll understand.

If you think it’s Chance the Rapper then you are 30 years too young to understand.

I am sure Tinman would be a good NCAA coach. Possibly a great one.

Nobody can predict, or expect, a dynasty. No matter how good the coach and recruiting is. Dynasties require everything to go prefect for you several years in a row. A lot is in your control, but also, a lot isn't.

There.

Can he do the other stuff? wrote:

Can he recruit?

Can he manage team dynamics?

Is he good with public and community relations?

How much does he like paperwork?

Can he manage money?

If so, maybe. His approach to training is smarter than most college coaches I know.

Absolutely. That man in on the spectrum. He could not be hired by any AD based on his abrasive know-it-all personality. He could not recruit and he could not take care of the long list of obligations of a college coach. Hudson is a great coach but he could not coach collegiates. Schwartz is a “scientist” legend in his own mind and he belongs with the no-pressure borderline subelites.

Shipyard wrote:

no results wrote:

nobody has been able to name more than 2 people tinman is coaching who have had success - just drew and reed

because everyone else is not doing well under tinman. he is a hack,

Sam Parsons improved a ton in the last year—something like 13:46 to 13:29, and 8th at USAs—3:44ish to 3:38.

Brogan Austin, from whatever to 2:12–and then a 9 second PR in the 3k 6 weeks later.

Joey Berriatua just PRed from 8:19 to 7:59 in his first race of the indoor season. Technically Jeff Thies PRed too.

There’s almost no one Tinman has coached who hasn’t made a startling improvement. But that’s very different from an NCAA dynasty. I don’t think he could do that, because I don’t think he could recruit well enough.

I'd anticipate even greater improvements for athletes 23-25 years old who are no longer in the NCAA, who are training full time, and who are living and training at altitude for the first time ever. They were some of the most talented runners in the country to begin with, of course they'll continue to improve if they keep working hard.

There is nothing about those results that even suggests the coach is one of the best in the country.

bloviating wrote:

Can he do the other stuff? wrote:

Can he recruit?

Can he manage team dynamics?

Is he good with public and community relations?

How much does he like paperwork?

Can he manage money?

If so, maybe. His approach to training is smarter than most college coaches I know.

Absolutely. That man in on the spectrum. He could not be hired by any AD based on his abrasive know-it-all personality. He could not recruit and he could not take care of the long list of obligations of a college coach. Hudson is a great coach but he could not coach collegiates. Schwartz is a “scientist” legend in his own mind and he belongs with the no-pressure borderline subelites.

Read his coaching bio on the tinman elite website and you'll see why he'd be a horrible college coach. He's the most arrogant, self-aggrandizing narcissist out there:

"The man, the myth, the mind behind Tinman Elite. Tom embodies what it means to be a student of the sport. He has learned, listened to, read, and archived every piece of running knowledge possible in order to bring all of his athletes to their best. And it's paid off. In his 30 years of coaching experience, he has developed dozens of NCAA DI runners, national champions, and national record holders. Tom coaches runners from youth to masters, across every distance and platform of running from the track, road, and trail. His training philosophy can be distilled into one phrase: "Keep the ball rolling." Consistent, tough, healthy, and smart training in order to feel your best year-round.

Tom is a competitor to his core, even refusing to take painkillers while fighting through a brain tumor a few years ago. His fighting, loving spirit is the reason we are called Tinman. It is an honor for us to bear the "Tinman" name and represent Tom in training and competition. Tom's passion and love for his athletes is unparalleled. As a team, we get our gritty and tough, yet loving team culture from the man who brought us all together. He currently lives in Boise, Idaho, with his wife, Tammy, and son, Teigon. Tom brings tenacity, compassion, and an inquisitive mind to Tinman Elite that shapes all team members."

He definitely wrote that himself.

What exactly is considered a dynasty?

Here are the teams that have won several titles in a short span of time. Which teams are dynasties in your opinion?

On the Men's Side:

1938-1942:Indiana won 3 National Titles in 5 years.

1942-1950:Penn State won 3 National Titles in 9 years.

1944-1946: Drake won 3 National Titles in 4 years.

1948-1959:Michigan State won 7 National Titles in 11 years.

1966-1970:Villanova won 4 National Titles in 5 years.

(I've heard very little about NCAA Cross-Country teams earlier than Oregon in the 70s. Curious what we could learn from the teams that won titles before Oregon.)

1971-1977:Oregon won 4 National Titles in 7 years.

1975-1981:UTEP won 6 National Title in 7 years.

(Had a 1983 National Title vacated)

1982-1988: Wisconsin won 3 National Titles in 7 years.

1984-2000:Arkansas won 11 National Titles in 17 years.

1996-1997: Stanford won back-to-back National Titles.

2001-2006:Colorado won 3 National Titles in 6 years.

2002-2003: Stanford won back-to-back National Titles.

2007-2008:Oregon won back-to-back National Titles.

2009-2012:Oklahoma State won 3 National Titles in 4 years.

2013-2014:Colorado won back-to-back National Titles.

2016-2018:NAU won 3 National Titles in 3 years.

~

And on the Women's side:

1981-1982:Virginia won back-to-back National Titles.

1984-1985:Wisconsin won back-to-back National Titles.

1989-1998:Villanova won 7 National Titles in 10 years.

1997-2002:BYU won 4 National Titles in 6 years.

2003-2007:Stanford won 4 National Titles in 5 years.

2009-2010:Villanova won back-to-back National Titles.

2015-2017:New Mexico won 2 National Titles in 3 years.

~

Which teams are dynasties in your opinion?

He probably did write that himself.

However, he is nowhere near " the most arrogant, self-aggrandizing narcissist out there". I actually don't really have any problem with his bio, compared to other some others I have read before.

I bolded and underlined the two parts of the bio I'd say I'd have a problem with.

1.) No way he's read everything. Not possible. Dumb absolute statement.

2.) Weird from them to represent Tom. I like how they buy into the "team" factor for sure. But the team should be bigger than any individual, including the coach. The coach is not the hero of the story, they are the guide. The athletes are the hero. And they all come together as a team to become something bigger than any individual could accomplish on their own.

But besides that. Meh. It's a coaching bio.

Where did he coach and what did he do?

Like A Bosshard wrote:

He's said it himself, he can't get an interview anywhere. So he's probably stopped trying. I can think of any number of good D2 and even D1 programs at altitude that would improve with his guidance. If coaching multiple high school studs doesn't garner notice of college admin, what he's doing now isn't likely to, either.

I believe he's also said the reason he can't get interviews is he hasn't played the game the way coaches are "supposed" to if you're angling for a collegiate coaching position, that is, coming up through the ranks. He's viewed as an outsider or interloper, and you aren't let into the club if you haven't played by the rules.

checkers not chess wrote:

Except they all ran some of their fastest times ever and Kosgei even ran the fastest time ever in the western hemisphere (and a PR). Emily Sisson ran a big PR and almost broke the AR. Most of them ran massive PRs such as Stinson, Tiernan, Walmsley, etc.

When it comes to the elite half marathon in North America, there is Houston and only Houston. It is relatively flat, fast and competitive, year after year. And of course the Kenyans hate the cold. But when both winners complain about the cold and the wind, and Sisson herself expressed some disappointment in her result, I will take their assessment as experienced participants, over someone lounging in the luxury of their keyboard.

There is no doubt in my mind that Reed definitively under 62 shape. Fastest American in the best half in America means something. We can debate that everyone at CIM last month "caught a flyer", but there is no such possibility with this result.

As far as tinman, and as someone who participated in the training threads with him and jk and others back in the day, he is a very solid coach with a well-tested and well-thought out program but whose personality can be an issue. One could easily say the same about Lydiard, Cerutty, Bowerman, etc.. Most of the great coaches seem to be "difficult" in some ways. Seems to go with the territory. Maybe it increases the "buy-in" factor. At this point Tom is not on the level of achievement of these greats by any means(except maybe in his own mind lol), but if you are an aspiring athlete, and can get over his ego, you will likely do well.

Probably should have said "it's difficult to get into the club" rather than "aren't let into the club." I'd imagine there are probably some exceptions. Also am going by memory here from having trawled through his Runzone forum a few years ago — memory for exact detail isn't always the greatest, but the above is the general gist as I recall it.

I think in nearly every profession there is a requirement to follow the customs to break into the ranks. Certainly some exceptions. Particularly in this day and age colleges seem to be scared of outliers. Too much potential risk for them. Whether this is fair or not can be debated.

I sense the general way to break into the ranks is to volunteer as a coach or pick up some part time assistant job. Not the easiest thing to do financially. Plus you need to show that you can/will support your boss and the institution almost above anything else. If you havent showed this then again it will be difficult to break in. Just being smart isnt enough. Just having some coaching success isnt enough to get hired.

prove it dude wrote:

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Most of the runners who he coaches were either stagnant or getting worse before coming to him. Basically every runner has had improvements, whether gradual or huge, under his tutelage

prove it. Post exactly who you are referring to, and their PRs before tinman and their current PRs.

Sam Parsons:

Collegiate 1500: 3:44. Tinman 1500: 3:38

Collegiate 5000: 13:52. Tinman 5000: 13:29

Reed Fischer:

Collegiate 5000: 13:48. Tinman 5000: 13:45

Collegiate 10000: 28:47. Tinman 10000: 28:38 (also 4th at USATF 10k 2018)

Tinman half marathon: 1:02:58 to 1:02:06

Tinman 10 mile (road): 49:50 to 47:50

Jeff Thies:

Collegiate 3000 (indoor): 8:03. Tinman 3000 (indoor): 7:59

Joey Berriatua:

Collegiate 3000 (indoor): 8:19. Tinman 3000 (indoor): 7:59

Tyler Mueller:

Collegiate 10000: 29:19. Tinman 10000: 28:56