60 mpw all at 7 pace, but haven't run a Sub 3 Marathon

Hobbyjoggers usually have ONE pace. They run that ONE pace for all distances. No difference in training and racing. 5k, 10k, marathon is all run at the same pace. That's why they think longer is harder.

Puzzlement wrote:

I'm very puzzled by this guy on strava. He had run some very long LR, at around 7 pace. Actually he run most of his runs at around 7 pace, and mostly below. Especially recently he's been running around 60 mpw almost all at Sub 7pace. But the guy's Marathon PR is slower than 3.

Granted his Marathon PR is dated, but back during the days leading to his Marathon PR, he was doing similar things.

For the life of me I can't believe how this can happen. My marathon pace feels pretty hard for me, and I can't imagine myself running my MP day after day at 60mpw.

I find it absolutely normal, running every day at the same moderately high intensity seems like what all the books and coaches consider to be worst training plan ever. Rather confused by this guy:

An hour every day at 7 minutes per mile, then Berlin, Chicago, Valencia all raced at around 6. There were a few longer workouts during summer like 30K or a half marathon, couldn't find any speedwork at all. How can such training work?

Hobbyjogger53 wrote:

An hour every day at 7 minutes per mile, then Berlin, Chicago, Valencia all raced at around 6. There were a few longer workouts during summer like 30K or a half marathon, couldn't find any speedwork at all. How can such training work?

Isn't Hadd training (or at least the base phase) based on a similar philosophy -- that you can develop a pretty efficient aerobic system just by running consistent easy mileage in training?

Lip Kitten wrote:Isn't Hadd training (or at least the base phase) based on a similar philosophy -- that you can develop a pretty efficient aerobic system just by running consistent easy mileage in training?

No, if that's what you got from what you read, you missed almost the whole point. If you replace "just" with "mostly," you'll be much closer to the right answer. That said, in his approach his "easy" running is at no better than 75% HRmax, and not closer to M-pace than 45-60s/mile.

I always did everything at whatever my marathon pace was at the time or a little faster so when I got under 3:00 I'd have been running pretty much everything at 7:00 or better. But I was doing at least 100 miles a week at the time and often a lot more. He may just not be running enough to maintain the pace the whole way.

SprintTriathlon wrote:

why ask wrote:

Why do his activities particularly concern you?

Why do you ask him why he ask?

Why do you ask him why he asks why he asks?

You ask how such training can work. I could never do it, but it seems that many, if not most people, can race at about a minute per mile faster than their usual training pace. There was a really successful high school coach in California for years, a guy called Jack Farrell, who used that idea as the basis for his coaching. What this guy is doing looks a lot like what Farrell had his runners doing.

But the high school kids were not running marathons so we can't completely explain George that way which leads to another training idea from long ago that never got a ton of airplay and it's Ken Young's "Collapse Point" theory. Young was one of the best ultra runners in the US in an era when ultras were usually run on roads and times were more standardized. His theory was that in order to be able to race any distance the minimum amount of training you need is at least two months (almost certain it's two but can't totally rule out three) where your average daily mileage is one third of your longest race distance. If George is doing an hour every day, according to Young's theory, he should be able to race decently at distances that take as long as three hours to cover.

Of course another very real possibility is that George is just really good and that if he trained more along the lines of a Steve Jones or a Ron Hill (going with Brits as George is in the UK) he'd be much faster than he is. So from that angle, the answer to your question is that his training really isn't working all that well.

OP here to answer some questions.

1. The reason I noticed this guy was because he was doing these crazy LRs. (In hobby jogger land, 20+mile at just above 7 pace is crazy). Actually it's pretty not to notice.

2. By LR I mean LR, not something like 10mile runs.

3. He's running much less mileage now at 60 mpw compared to when he was training for his PR Marathon. Back then it was over 100. So lack of miles wasn't the issue. He was running at faster pace now, but shorter both in overall length and individual runs. Leading into his PR marathon, he was running 20+ miles at slightly slow than MP.

4. I'm asking mostly out o curiosity. Running 10+miles at MP is extremely difficult for me on training days, without the tapering and stuff.

Is your MP the pace you want to run or the pace you have run a marathon before? 10 miles at MP should not be that difficult. If you are struggling that much then I don't think it's actually your MP

Hobbyjogger53 wrote:

running every day at the same moderately high intensity seems like what all the books and coaches consider to be worst training plan ever.

Never heard of people like Derek Clayton, Mike Musyoki or Norm Green?

That's how they trained in the past. Lots of steady/hard miles with little variation.

It surely worked for them and it's still suitable for some people who don't respond very well to interval training style and hard/easy routine.

Zoltan wrote:

Is your MP the pace you want to run or the pace you have run a marathon before? 10 miles at MP should not be that difficult. If you are struggling that much then I don't think it's actually your MP

I'm referring to my last Marathon and training leading into that marathon. So I was having difficulty running at MP for longer than 10 miles during my training run, then at race day I actually ran at slightly faster than that planned MP.

Post-college guy wrote:

In college, one year:

Not running for the team, I was running -

Hour at 6:45 pace every a.m.

90 minutes Sundays on trails (Boulder).

5x1K at 255-3:00 Wednesdays.

And never raced. I was 19. What times COULD I have run?

Probably 8:50 - 9:00 for 3k

That kind of training is probably best specialized for 3-10k. Equivalent to probably 15:20 - 15:35 and 32:20 - 32:50 on the track. Add some time for the roads. Would likely fall off without Marathon specific training for longer distances.

Puzzlement wrote:

I'm very puzzled by this guy on strava. He had run some very long LR, at around 7 pace. Actually he run most of his runs at around 7 pace, and mostly below. Especially recently he's been running around 60 mpw almost all at Sub 7pace. But the guy's Marathon PR is slower than 3.

Granted his Marathon PR is dated, but back during the days leading to his Marathon PR, he was doing similar things.

For the life of me I can't believe how this can happen. My marathon pace feels pretty hard for me, and I can't imagine myself running my MP day after day at 60mpw.

does he ever run workouts?

maybe he just isn't very talented?!

i used to train about 70 mpw and ended up running 2:28.

I've had spelles where i just ran 50-55 mpw week around 6:45-7:15 pace and then jumped in a marathon and run 2:45 or so. Could jump in a 5k and run 16:20's

It's like this guy gets no aerobic benefit from mileage or is just pushing way too hard like you said

weird

p.s. It's you we're talking about, right?

George does IronMan events, he has one listed on his feed, so he's obviously swimming and biking too just not putting those on Strava

Training one dimensional is never a good thing. Switch up workouts throughout the week, different paces allow the body to consistently adapt to training loads.

I know a guy who runs 80-100+ miles per week, almost always at sub-7:00 pace. His marathon PR is around 3:05. He never does workouts and never tapers. Someone called him out on it once, and he said that he’d rather put up big numbers than chase PRs. I can’t imagine putting that much time and effort into running and not at least try to race at your potential, but everyone is different.

guy who assumes a lot wrote:

p.s. It's you we're talking about, right?

lol

If you want a scientific explanation Google search "John hadd marathon training". There will be a pdf link. Read it. Basically the guy is not fuel efficient.

not that weird wrote:

Coming out of college I was doing 60-70mpw, got my long run up to 21 miles at 6:30 pace, almost all running was well under 7 pace except easy/recovery days, and when it came to marathon day I could never hold sub-3 pace in 3 different attempts. Probably a combo of me being a headcase, poor hydration/nutrition, and some bad luck, but I can relate to OP's guy.

I've never understood the people who think marathon pace feels hard. It feels easy to me and I still can't hold it for 26 miles. No idea how you could do that running at a pace that feels anything other than very comfortable.

I have a marathon PR of almost exactly 6:00 pace and I tend to race pretty consistently. I do pace-specific work of up to ~16 miles at a time at 6:00 pace. It feels fast. Every time I do a workout like this, within 2-3 miles, I feel like I'm running pretty fast, and I think "wow, it is going to really suck to hold this for 15 or 16 miles today." Then, somehow, I taper out and I can run a marathon at that pace. On marathon day, if I run well and evenly split, I usually feel like I'm hanging on for the last 10 miles or so, but I do hang on. A few friends who run faster times around 2:20-2:25 have told me they usually feel terrible by mile 10 at marathon pace and just suck it up for the last 2/3 of the race. It seems pretty unusual to find marathon pace to be easy. If you're fit and ready for a marathon, it just means that you can endure a fast, hard pace for a really long time.