Sub 2h30 Spring Marathon - The Quest for Amateur Glory is back!

Amateur wrote:

Weekly training report, 13 weeks out from Ottawa Marathon.

Sunday: weights

Monday: 14 miles

Tuesday: 18 miles w/ 9x1mi - 400 jog. 5:44 avg. rain and wind!

Wednesday: weights

Thursday: 18 miles - 7mi into 10x800on/400off, averaged 5:24 pace for the 800ons. Windy again!

Friday: 14 miles

Saturday: 24 miles - 14mi ez(6:50) then averaged 5:47/mi from 14-23, 1mi cool down. Not windy!

88mile week in 5 runs. 26% of mileage around goal MP or faster.

The long run this week was encouraging. Got good sleep and nutrition all week after feeling a big tired in the legs Tuesday. Getting there!

Very impressive work! I don't know how you manage all those long singles with a lot of good quality.

Bit of an odd week here, strained the old hamstring doing some light speed-work on Tuesday, but saw a physio on Friday who seemed to do it some good. Will keep up the PT in hopes of being able to increase training intensity for the remaining 2 months.

M- AM: 8 easy / PM: 3 easy

T- AM: 4 easy / PM: 11 with 10mins hard, 3mins jog, 4 x (1:30 hard, 1:30 jog)

W- AM: 6 easy / PM: 4 easy

T- AM: 8 easy / PM : 4 easy

F- AM: 8 easy / PM: 4 easy

S- 6 easy

S- 21, starting easy, last 4 miles harder, finishing maybe a bit under MP

Total: 87 mi.

Thanks David Wilson! I focus on fueling some during the 18’s and immediately after just about every run. Where I live is flat so I think that helps. Plus, being self-coached, I’ve run my mileage on 4-5 runs for a couple years as the weights (mostly kettlebell swings) keep injuries away. Also, lots of ice and good sleep helps. I don’t know how you manage doubles! I do all my sessions right after work, but would have a hard time getting up in the morning for a session before needing to get to the office by 8 with a 30min commute.

Keep on the PT with the hamstring! Even with the hang up, an 87mi week with that long run and Tuesday session is solid.

Are you one of the guys running Boston?

I am ashamed of posting my weekly workouts after Amateur, David Wilson, reed, etc, It is impressive how many miles you guys manage to put week after week.

Keep up the good work guys, you're all inspirational.

Here's my week:

Monday - 7 easy

Tuesday - 7 easy

Wednesday - am 5 easy / pm 13 x 1000m avg 3.16, rest 200m jog (1.20)

Thursday - off

Friday - am: tempo - 10 miles in 58.40 / pm: 5 easy

Saturday: 8 easy but with 1300 ft ascending

Sunday: 13 easy / 1h30

Total - 65 miles

After 4 weeks in a row running at least 30 km on Sundays I took it easier this week in terms of long runs, next week will build up again.

This next week I'm planning to repeate one of the top 3 toughest workouts I had before Amsterdam last year: 3 x 5 km with a 5' jog in between.

Last year I went too fast for the first one (16.40s) and then was in pain and managed to finish barely under 17 30 for the last two. Hoping for a better average this time, lets see if this will work well.

Ha! Me too. I have started to up the mileage a bit this week and I'm hoping to have the next 3 weeks right around 70. This block will be my bridge from the speed development phase into some longer intervals and some more consistent long runs. This week must have been the week for 1ks, I ran my strongest 1k workout in a while on Thursday. The plans was to alternate between 10k and 5k pace for 8 x1k, but I let myself get pulled along by some much faster guys...

M: 4 - was crunched for time here

Tu: 11 with 20 x 400/1:00 rest. Avg 76s for the first 10, 74s for the second half

We: 10

Th: 11 with 8 x 1k/1:30 rest (3:16, 3:05, 3:14, 3:03, 3:07, 3:01, 3:08, 3:00)

Fr: 10

Sa: 16

Su: 7

Total: 68

Getting fit! Biggest miles in months and months this week, sets up for a well-earned easier week this week before the final 5 weeks leading up to Boston.

Monday: 6x1 mile off ~3 minute rest, average 5:35 or so (appx. HMP at current altitude of 4500) into 14ish x 30s on/minute off mostly at 4:50-5. 16+ total.

Tuesday: 9 recovery at 7:05.

Wednesday: At this point was planning to race a 15k this weekend, so did short hills and pickups to get the legs moving. 8x20s hills sub 5 pace, then another 8 or so intervals between 30s and a minute from 4:40-5. Total of 7 then another 5 easy with some strides on the treadmill that evening for 12+ total.

Thursday: 9.5 recover a bit under 7.

Friday: Decided I wasn't racing Saturday due to a different than usual start time for the series, ran a rolling 15k tempo instead at 5:47 (appx. marathon effort) for almost 13 total.

Saturday: 6.6 hungover, less soreness than expected.

Sunday: 21 progressive, 7 down to 6 basically. Half of it into a ~15mph headwind. Averaged around 6:10 for the last 6, longest run in ages, tough but not overly so. Combined with the previous week and some recovery for the upcoming race, it puts me in reach of sub 2:30 in Boston.

mon 13.6 easy

tue 10 w/ 5x1000, 1x1200 in ~3:06 then 3:34 (100sec rest). felt easy/relaxed

wed 11.4 pretty hilly, but easy

thu 17.2 pretty easy on flattish trails

fri 12mi moderate (6:15 pace but 5:51 effort) and 5min cooldown. no warmup

sat 4.6 easy with some hiking practice, jogged 15', then did 15' going up/down a 100' levee, then jogged 15' back

sun 12.5 with a 2min pickup at the beginning of the 4th through 10th miles. about tempo effort, not difficult.

total 82 miles with 6600' climbing. was on pace for probably 90+ until saturday and decided that I should probably taper for my 50k next weekend. next week will be some shorter runs, with some kind of workout on tuesday and my race on saturday.

no plans for the week after, as it all depends on the recovery. will either do a few 3mi jogs or will take a few days off. then I'll have basically 3 more weeks of actual training before tapering again for the 50 miler. will probably stop doing as much hills and speedwork and will focus on hitting good volume with a lot of moderate intensity stuff, and my easy runs will shift a bit quicker to be close to 50mi race effort, about 6:45/mi

Hi there,

Longtime lurker of the previous sub 2:30-threads here. This time around I'm actually preparing for a marathon myself, so I might as well jump in and get some internet accountability for my training and racing this spring. Inspiring to see the time and effort you guys are putting in, chasing some of that amateur glory, hopefully I can bring some of that to the table as well.

A little bit of context:

2:37:08 PR from Frankfurt in the fall of 2016, aiming for 2:40 I went out at 1:20 and ended up with a big negative split, indicating that I could've run a bit faster on that day. Ran around 120 km / week consistently for the six months leading up to that race, peaking at 150 kms / week. Not very structured training in that buildup, but did a lot of longer intervals at target marathon pace in the months leading up to the race.

Ran 33:02 for 10k on the track in the spring of 2017 after a good winter of training. Sustained a small groin injury , been mixing periods of solid training with small niggles and injury breaks since then.

Coming in with a good block of consistency since September last year, increasing the mileage from an average of 140 km/week up to 160-170 km/week for December and January, while still staying in one pice (and relatively fresh as well).

Started the marathon block last week, with 10 weeks to Hamburg (28th of April), with the aerobic base I got at the moment 2:30 feels within reach with a good specific block.

Mon: 8k (AM) - 13k with 10 short hill sprints (PM)

Tue: 16k with 4 x 2k - 20k with 12 x 1k @ 3:20

Wed: 8k - 11k

Thu: 8k - 13k with 10 short hill sprints

Fri: 26k with 8 x 1k at marathon pace with 1k quick jog rest (average 3:35 for the efforts and 3:53 for the recoveries) - 7k with an hour of gym afterwards.

Sat: 12k

Sun: 31k @ 4:28/km

Mileage: 173 km

Good week overall, first attempt at a double threshold on Tuesday. Very gentle morning threshold, and actually felt better than usual in the afternoon workout. Friday felt solid, goal marathon pace feels about right, I'm fit aerobically but lacking a bit of muscular endurance at the moment. Feeling that towards the back-end of those 16k at a quicker pace. Recovered well after the big Friday and felt fresh on the long run yesterday.

1 week in the books, 9 weeks to go. Another high mileage week coming up!

welcome to the thread goteborg. you're the first ~2:30 marathoner I've heard of doing double workout days. How long have you been doing those? seems to me like it would compromise the rest of your week.

I just listened to a podcast about doing 2 workouts in a day to increase fat burning for endurance sports. they said that the first effort should deplete your carb stores, so it would be either long or intense, and the second run should be of lesser intensity. and you weren't supposed to eat any carbs in between the workouts, so that you are depleted for the second workout.

it also said that the benefits are marginal at best, and probably not worth it for 99% of athletes.

Keep up the good work rfmaioral!

I’ll be running the 3x5k workout tomorrow too. Planned to start right at 5:40 pace then see if I can get down to 5:30 or under for the last two without straining too much.

Get some

Amateur wrote:

Keep up the good work rfmaioral!

I’ll be running the 3x5k workout tomorrow too. Planned to start right at 5:40 pace then see if I can get down to 5:30 or under for the last two without straining too much.

Get some

good luck! it will be interesting to see how you do . Definitely starting with the right approach.

Last year for me it went 16.43 / 17.25 / 17.25. I remember almost giving up on the second one. My approach this time will be different and aligned with yours, going progressively faster. My goal is to go 17.15 / 17.10 and challenge myself to break 17 for the 3rd. It will be painful!

reed wrote:

welcome to the thread goteborg. you're the first ~2:30 marathoner I've heard of doing double workout days. How long have you been doing those? seems to me like it would compromise the rest of your week.

I just listened to a podcast about doing 2 workouts in a day to increase fat burning for endurance sports. they said that the first effort should deplete your carb stores, so it would be either long or intense, and the second run should be of lesser intensity. and you weren't supposed to eat any carbs in between the workouts, so that you are depleted for the second workout.

it also said that the benefits are marginal at best, and probably not worth it for 99% of athletes.

Thanks for the welcome, reed! Looking forward to seeing what you can do in that 50k race coming up, you seem to be in good shape at the moment.

Which podcast was that? Would be great to check that out, to see if there if a theory backing this practice up.

Last week was actually the first time I tried a double workout. Inspiration comes froms our Norwegian neighbours, the Ingebrigtsen brothers use it quite a lot in their base training (not sure where they picked it up from). I have a couple of training partners (one 2:12-guy and a 2:22-guy, so a notch or three above my level) who have been doing this for a year or so, with good results. The morning workout should be quite easy, staying under the aerobic threshold (or 2mmol lactate if you're into measuring that). The evening workout on the other hand should be a bit harder effort at just under the anaerobic threshold. The main point I believe is to add a bunch of aerobic work, without that much extra stress. Doing it on the same day as another workout allows you to get a few easy days to recover before the next workout.

For me the morning workout was done at around 3:40/km-pace (which was not really clear by my weekly recap). I felt fresh for the evening workout, and then had two really easy days to recover in time for the workout on Friday. Another key factor I believe is that I have a really relaxed work situation at the moment, working 32 hours a week, most of the time working from home and overall not very stressful work.

I will do another double workout today, but will probably drop it once the marathon workouts gets a bit harder later on in the buildup. The rewards are probably not worth the risk of injury/burnout for me at this point, might experiment with it again in base training over the summer.

Good luck with the 3 x 5k, Amateur, that's a good one!

Alright, back from 3x5k. Not quite as fast as you rfmaioral.

4mi warmup straight into 3x5k with 1k jog recovery (~5:00ish)

17:19, 17:26, 17:20. 5:35/mi average.

18 total for the run.

Felt pretty good. Tough after the first one but in control the whole time with even splits throughout except mile 2 of the second rep. Happy with this coming off 88mi last week and the 24 I ran Saturday w/9@5:47.

Great mental focus workout by yourself on a track. Helped a ton it was sunny out today!

Love this thread. I too will be running Boston this year. I did last year as well, so I don't have the highest of hopes for a fast time.

I got my sub 2:30 last fall (obviously not Boston) which was somewhat of a surprise because I was training for a half and didn't do a LR of over 17 (maybe I did 18 once, but I don't think so). Here are my thoughts for note comparison.

Everyones body and running history is different, but for me I think the key was increasing milage before asking my body to absorb a lot of intensity. Though I still struggled with intensity after I increased miles, lots of ups and downs, but after keeping with it for several weeks I adapted and was able to do a schedule like this weekly:

M,T - Easy

W - 1Ks usually, not exclusively. Started off with 5 and ended up working up to 9. Pace was 3:05 to 3:07

R,F - Easy

S - Lactate - Half marathon type tempo or intervals. Best intervals were 1,2,3,2,1 @ ~5:25 and 4x2 at around the same pace. 5:30 tempos were my other choice workout.

S - Mid long (15-17), often uptempo (6:10-6:30), but sometimes easy. Doing this after a workout helped me justify the lack of the real long run.

I averaged just a hair under 90 mpw for the last ~12 weeks before taper. Easy days were usually doubles. 2:28:4x was my time.

For those who travel for work, I feel your pain. I still have no clue how to have any resemblance of volume on those weeks. Focus on the quality I guess?

Good luck everyone!

I am back from the 3 x 5 km. What a tough one.

First went in 17.17 very controlled.

Second I was kind of pushing to go around 17.15, but a stupid dog crossed on my way and then started following me for a few meters, lost concentration and ended up with 17.23. Not so bad in the end.

Third I did at the track - 16.59! 'Kicked' a 77" for the last lap to break 17.

I was super tired in the end but not exhausted as I was when I've done this last year, also about 45 days before the race (16.43 / 17.25 / 17.25)

Overal I was slightly slower this year with 17.17 / 17.23 / 16.59 but the overall feeling was better.

@amateur, congrats on finishing this workout. I know your pain. You did very well! You have a lot more mileage on your legs than I do, and for your description I imagine you did not push as hard as I did.

You're on your way to a sub-2h30 time, keep up the good work!

February went amazing and it was my easiest month at work, with no travels. Still I had to do some long hours and could not average more than 65 mpw.

March will start well as I take one week of Holidays next week (hopefully a pretty amazing running one, I'll write here later what I'll be up to...), but then when I am back it will get crazy at work and I'll have a long two weeks work trip from march 20th till early April... so I'll need a little miracle to not lose my fitness.

Keep up the good work, pretty nice to read how your weeks are going.

@rfmaioral - awesome workout and thanks for the encouragement. Nice job getting under 17 on the last one! That third 5k is a tough one after having run 10k with only a 5min active jog in between.

I agree it’s tough fitting the volume in with long work hours. This is why I run singles, but I also have a supportife wife and we don’t have kids yet... walked in the door today at 5:45pm after having started working at 7:30, was out the door at 6 and when I came back at 7:45 pm dinner was almost ready. My wife is awesome.

Best of luck on the long business trip. I had a two week business trip three weeks out from the half I was training for last fall. Every weekday when work was done my colleagues headed to the bar and I was out the door of the hotel a little jealous, but had amateur glory in mind!! ...plus, they were always there when I got back and I never missed much.

I put the 3x4mile in my calendar for about 6 weeks from now and would like to be able to average closer to 5:30 vs the 5:35avg from the recent 3x5k.

Keep it up!

@Shane - welcome to the thread! Congrats on the 2:28!! Good to see someone’s week that has some sub 2:30. I like that 1,2,3,2,1 workout and will have to try that.

How long was your longest tempo?

One training goal I have before my race is to be able to “tempo” 12-14 at 5:40 pace and feel like I have another 12-14 in me. Will likely do this3-4 weeks out.

@rfmaioral-

I’d also say that your 3x5k this year is more impressive than the one you did last year as your first two reps, dog run-in included, were faster than your last two last year, and your last rep was your fastest with the workout already in the legs. Much better to finish strong than be hanging on!

Interesting approach Shane. I had a question:

Why do you do easy days back to back, and hard(er) days back to back on weekend, rather than alternating between them?

I never felt that I could do hard runs without back to back easy days. Mid cycle there was a few weeks in fact that I could only hit one truly hard day a week. It just took time to adapt. So even when I improved enough I still needed at least the two easy days before I could do a "Q" day even when I started to peak. Some people suggest a 9 day schedule to deal with this issue. I found that for whatever reason I could push my self on the "LR" on Sunday such that I could stick with the 7 day schedule, which I wanted to have my runs fit my work schedule more consistently. My training philosophy and justification somewhat mirrors a Hansons philosophy which is your long run shouldn't be run on fresh legs. So I felt like I was getting the benefit of a long run without needing to go the typical distance.

Thanks. Your 3x5k is a really solid workout. Nice work! I did a 9 mile tempo at 5:40, but my 1,2,3,2,1 (5:22, 10:38, 16:08, 10:52, 5:25) run averaged out to be 5:40 over the 13.2 miles (including warm up and jog recovery). So I would say that long tempo runs were not my main focus and intervals were. I would try to think of them in terms of minutes at threshold rather than distance. So 2x20 minutes was also something I would do (it took a while to work up to this) at a pace that felt like I could hold it in a race for 1 hour (though during training this turned out to be slightly slower than my half marathon pace). There is a ton of philosophies on the amount of lactate and duration of the tempo run. I don't have much speed at all, so I tried to work my 1k and shorter threshold runs.

Doing 12-14 at 5:40 sounds challenging and definitely doable, but I would be surprised if you can feel like you have another 12-14 in you at that pace though. I certainly never hit that mark. Simply too much "continuous fatigue" around peak training. So IMO if you do hit that, shoot for better than 5:40 pace in the race. Though we could just be built differently.

I guess another mark that might be helpful for you to compare against is that I ran a half the week before the full at 5:21 pace. This was me missing a goal of sub 70, but super helpful to figure out my pace for the full the following week. I would not have gone out at 5:40 if I hadn't seen 5:21 for the half.

Remember that my schedule/advice is worth what you paid for it :)