This advice is much appreciated. Only things I'm really worried about at this point are getting to the line and nutrition for this. I'm staying in Wolburn (wherever the heck that is).
This advice is much appreciated. Only things I'm really worried about at this point are getting to the line and nutrition for this. I'm staying in Wolburn (wherever the heck that is).
First of all, congrats Reed on the 50 miler. Quite the feat even if you came up just short of the W.
I'll piggyback on this.
-Last year I had access to a house in Hopkinton, so my biggest concern is staying warm at the start. Im planning to hit up a thrift store looking for a down suit. When I cant find it, I'll be looking for the next best thing.
-I totally second Reed's comments about throw away shoes, someone recommended that to me for Boston my first year and I never regretted it, even in hot years. I may even wait to get out of the mud of the AV to put my flats on. There are plenty of people taking gear at the start, you dont have to leave it in the AV.
-I wore short half-tights and my friend wore shorts, we both concluded afterwards that the half tights were the better decision. Any amount of rain, opt for half tights.
-Think carefully about how much water your gear is going to hold if its raining. You want it to hold as little as possible.
-We bought ultra thin womens leggings at CVS and cut the toes off for Arm warmers. This was much better than the thick armwarmers that are more typical as they held almost no water but enough to warm up next to your skin.
-At the last minute I also opted to run in nice technical gloves and headband rather than thick cottony ones that I intended to throw away for the same reason. Definitely a good decision with the rain.
-I'd also recommend as tight a fitting a singlet as possible so that it just sticks to you when wet. A spandex baselayer would also work but I like having my shoulders free.
-If you are thin, you might ignore my clothing advice and bundle up more. There were a lot of bigger dudes in the top 100 last year and a lot of skinny ones that faltered.
-Be cautious about going out too hard. I think the heat exacerbated bonking last year. In general I think people fear cold less (for good reason) and go out harder to stay warm. When its really cold, this can backfire, any amount of bonk results in less heat generation. Then you start burning fuel for warmth and potentially shivering which exacerbates the bonk. Its a positive feedback cycle from there.
Im excited about the weather. I ran 2:35:50 for 58th last year, 3 minute PR. I was on pace to negative split through mile 24, but lost 50 seconds in Boston. Ideal for me would be 35 and dry. But if it gets nasty, I know that will help my place as much as it hurts my time.
rfmaioral wrote:
@whid it is a pity that we are not in the same corral as indeed we are probably in similar shape and it would've been nice to do some work together. There's one difference though - you have added more miles in your bank. I believe you can run 2h28 / 2h29 and part of of actually reaching this goal is believing - you need to be totally confident you will do it.
You're right. I have to start fine tuning my mental game as well. I've watched the course vid multiple times, but need to watch it while thinking positive thoughts this time around. Mental prep has always been key for me so time to get on it.
@BouldeR interesting suggestion about women's leggings as arm warmers. I was also thinking of relatively light tech gloves for the race with rain (I'll use the key pockets in the palm for Gu's as opposed to carrying them).
Speaking of which, what is everyone's plan for fueling during the race? I'm thinking of taking a Gu at miles 7 and 15 and then gulping down up to but not more than half of a Clif energy gel thing that's going to be at mile 21 ish. Taking one water cup probably every other mile (pinch and shoot), and only 2 gatorade shots max over the whole run to save my stomach some pain.
I'm planning on wearing half tights if it's colder and rainy and shorts if it's mid 40s and dry (my shorts have one pocket in them for a Gu - tights do not). So I'll be holding at least one Gu for 7 miles.
I should note that I'm probably going to take a pass on water/gatorade after mile 21, so I'll only get water ~8 times. That should be enough to hydrate but not upset my stomach.
@rfmaioral - I plan on using safety pins to attach three gels to my half tights, the same method I used for my last marathon. It went pretty well. I just need to find the best way for them to stick so they don't slap around like they did a bit last time.
Other than that, I'll take water every 5K and maybe some Gatorade every 10K or so.
Good luck to everyone running on Monday! From the last few weeks of the thread we ought to have some good times. I've bailed out of this training cycle to get rid of injuries, but will hope to take a crack at a first marathon in the fall and join you all for Boston 2020.
The fueling part is something I'm trying to figure out. This is my second marathon and in my first I only had one gu and a couple stops at water. I did run easy for 10 though so I didn't feel it all that much. Now that I'm actually running for a time I know fueling will be important. I was told every 30 minutes but it felt excessive during my long run last week.
I practice with a lot of gels on m-pace runs to make sure my stomach can handle it. I also did 26+ with nothing to prevent dependence on the gel and encourage fat burning. I wouldnt advocate anyone doing something they havent tried on a long race pace effort. That said here's my plan
Carb boom 9:15
Carb boom 9:45
Carb boom from hand Mile 2
Carb boom from pocket mile 5
Carb boom from pocket mile 8
Clif Shot from aid station mile 12 (grab 2)
Clif shot from aid station (saved from earlier) mile 15
Clif Shot from aid station mile 18
Clif shot from aid station mile 22 (probably only half of this one)
Salt stick tablets at miles 3 6 9 13 16 19 23
No gatorade, just water at every aid station.
BouldeRunner wrote:
I practice with a lot of gels on m-pace runs to make sure my stomach can handle it. I also did 26+ with nothing to prevent dependence on the gel and encourage fat burning. I wouldnt advocate anyone doing something they havent tried on a long race pace effort. That said here's my plan
Carb boom 9:15
Carb boom 9:45
Carb boom from hand Mile 2
Carb boom from pocket mile 5
Carb boom from pocket mile 8
Clif Shot from aid station mile 12 (grab 2)
Clif shot from aid station (saved from earlier) mile 15
Clif Shot from aid station mile 18
Clif shot from aid station mile 22 (probably only half of this one)
Salt stick tablets at miles 3 6 9 13 16 19 23
No gatorade, just water at every aid station.
this seems insane...and totally overkill for 99% of people
clothing topic first - I agree that half tights are a good choice, and a singlet is still okay. wear a lot of extra body glide or anti-chafe balm. I'd even go bandaids on nipples instead of a lubricant. you don't need to change your clothes until just before you enter your corral, maybe 10min pre-race. there will be decent spots to do a shoe swap.
as for carrying gels, I'd strongly recommend some type of waist pack like a spibelt or a Nathan mirage pak. basically a zippered pocket on a stretchy belt around your waist. totally worth having for the rest of your running career anyway, so just buy it. I'd plan on carrying all of your gels with you from the start, so you can just focus on getting water at aid stations and not be looking for the gels. another option would be to stick some gels in your gloves or armwarmers.
nutrition - if you don't have a plan by now, you're probably screwed anyway. but if you want my advice, take gels early and often. one before the start, then take one every 30min or every 5mi. don't wait until mile 10 or 12 to take the first one, that's a common mistake. for a 2:30 marathon that would mean taking a gel at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25. obviously the gel at 25 would either be skipped or taken earlier.
plan on not being able to use your fingers, so make sure you'll still be able to open your gels with your teeth or something. it might be hard to remove one from your shorts pocket if your hands are numb, so be prepared.
rfmaioral wrote:
@reed thanks for the tips! Very useful. I can only imagine how crazy was last year. What was your final tims? Something like 15-20 min slower than what you were expecting?
not even close to 15-20min slowdown. I ran 2:39:30ish and Boulderrunner ran 2:35:50. I was probably in shape to run 2:32ish on a flat course, and on a perfect day in Boston probably 2:32 or 2:33. maybe 2:29 with 2011 conditions/tailwind.
I'd say that the slowdown due to conditions, for me in corral 1 running 6:00 pace or so, the headwind cost me a few minutes. the cold may have caused my slow last 10k which probably was another couple minutes. If I could redo Boston in the same fitness and conditions, I'd probably be able to run 2:36-2:37 (better gear, slightly more conservative pacing). So if you do everything correctly, the weather probably cost me 4-5 minutes. Not 10+ minutes as many suggest. What happened was that people weren't mentally ready to run at 100% effort in bad conditions, with a PB not in play. Many people let down their guard and ran slower than they could have. Then they see other people struggling and think it's okay to run slower. Suddenly you have people saying that the wind/rain/cold cost 10, 15, 20 minutes instead of 4-5.
The weirdest thing is how slow the elites ran. Yuki 2:15, Des 2:39. Considering that Yuki runs a ton of 2:10ish marathons, and was prepared pretty well for the weather, his slowdown was about 5 minutes, the same as me. Des however, winning by 5 minutes in 2:39high...is weird. I don't think Desi ran all that well either, she only ran from 35 to 40k in about 18:50 on a downhill. the women's elite start must have caused additional carnage due to the lack of "cover".
What's the typical wait time like in the corral before we start? Is there a drop-dead point that you need to be inside the ropes?
BouldeRunner wrote:
I practice with a lot of gels on m-pace runs to make sure my stomach can handle it. I also did 26+ with nothing to prevent dependence on the gel and encourage fat burning. I wouldnt advocate anyone doing something they havent tried on a long race pace effort. That said here's my plan
Carb boom 9:15
Carb boom 9:45
Carb boom from hand Mile 2
Carb boom from pocket mile 5
Carb boom from pocket mile 8
Clif Shot from aid station mile 12 (grab 2)
Clif shot from aid station (saved from earlier) mile 15
Clif Shot from aid station mile 18
Clif shot from aid station mile 22 (probably only half of this one)
Salt stick tablets at miles 3 6 9 13 16 19 23
No gatorade, just water at every aid station.
Maybe you've found this works for you, but this is unimaginable to me. there's no way my stomach could handle anything more than maybe 4 or so gels over the entire marathon.
The literature on energy consumption and usage for endurance events points to not much more than ~1 gel's worth of "fast digesting food" more than 15-20 minutes prior to the start of the race, as when the energy isn't immediately used, it's stored. Spending the energy to begin the process of long term carb storage stimulates your parasympathetic nervous system which brings blood to your digestive system rather than your extremities.
I don't see how a gel every 5k is optimal from a physiological standpoint either, especially since your body won't even have fully utilized the energy you ingested within the ~18 minutes between 5ks. but with each individual runner, if it works for you then it works for you. I've done up to 22 miles with 1 gu and no water, so I'll stick to my 2.5 gels for this race lol
I wont debate each point individually but will just respond in general (as to not write another novel to which I am prone.)
-Im intrigued about skipping the 45 minute out gel. You make a point on that that seems pretty valid.
-In general I am of the opinion that the limiting factor in the marathon is fueling, so basically take as much as you can stomach. I'm a decent beer miler with a solid stomach. I could do more gels than this without issue (I think) but am trusting the literature Ive seen which suggests 300 kcal per hour.
-I increased gel intake after hearing that Amy Hastings was practicing with a gel every 3 miles to train her stomach prior to Rio. Im nearly twice her size and slower, so I figured if she could stomach it, I should try.
-I also heard that one of the primary components of breaking2 was to have a sort of constant stream of calories with pacers handing kipchoge bottles.
-I used to be incredibly dependent upon gels and used less of them. My breakthrough in marathoning (2:54-2:42) came when I trained with less of them and used more in the race. I've done 25 plus with nothing 3-4 times this cycle, so Im in no way dependent upon the gels, they are purely an added benefit.
last year I was only in the corral for a few minutes before the gun. I was a bit rushed though as I did my shoe swap a little too late, and then lost a glove.
Have been doing some research today and might register for the San Francisco Marathon. It's July 28th which gives me 109 days (15.5 weeks). I wish it were a month sooner, but there aren't many good local summer marathons to choose from. There are some other smaller races, but I don't really want to run a marathon where I'll win by 10 minutes. San Francisco usually has a few guys under 2:30, though it's a very difficult course. Probably 5 seconds/mi slower than a flat course, although the weather should be fine so that saves some worry. It was also my debut marathon in 2011 (ran 3:10, BQ baby!)
I actually just applied to the elite field, so if accepted I'll get a free entry and a spot on the start line.
To those about to tell me to run Grandma's in June, I don't know if I want to shell out the travel $ to gamble on the humidity.
So...15 weeks. I think that this may be a good race for me, as I could potentially place top 3 which would be motivating, plus it benefits those who run patiently and adjust for hills well, which I do. I won't be running 2:28 there, but a 2:30 at SF would be a very good result and worth 2:28 on most other marathons.
Yeah, I get the point about fueling and 300kcal per hour. I'm wondering if that's just the high end optimal level, though, and lower levels of kcal per hour (e.g. 150) are still statistically significant in their ability to facilitate ATP production. I'll have to dive in to the literature again to find that out. Your breakthrough marathon training makes perfect sense especially considering how the goal of endurance training is to optimize energy and oxygen consumption. So if you think your stomach can handle it then it seems like a good idea. I'll have to train my stomach better next time around to see if I can manage the same.
@reed I did San Francisco for my qualifying thon last July. It's good that you've already run the race before, especially since it's so hilly. It's definitely a "what goes up must come down" kind of course in terms of kills, so I'm sure if you take most of the uphills modestly you'll be in shape energy wise for a pretty quick 2nd half. I was in the elite corral last year and used a 10 mile race that Spring for my application (53:55). I got accepted pretty quick even though I applied in mid April, though you definitely should ensure to apply ASAP so spots don't run out. that seed time got me bib #37. may have been higher if I used a longer distance.
reed wrote:
I actually just applied to the elite field, so if accepted I'll get a free entry and a spot on the start line. .
Oh, just saw this line haha. yeah you'll probably be fine in this department. You can pretty much count on mid 50s and slightly humid weather for that 5:30am start time each year, which is pretty good.
150 kcal per hour probably isn't enough for most people. I'd go with a minimum 200 kcal/hr unless there's some reason you can't handle a gel every 30min. if you can't handle that, then figure out another way to get in 200 kcal/hr. try other gels. try maurten. try lemonade (cam levins ran 2:09 with the stuff).
for ultramarathons I'm taking 200-250 kcal/hr and would like to use more but haven't really got around to trying it yet. I function well up to 6.5 hours on ~200 kcal/hr, though if you're doing a lot more hills in the race, you'll need more calories as well.
and personally, I don't think fasted long runs or no-calorie long runs are helpful, except for getting used to feeling terrible. I've seen some research that debunks fasted long runs, and those same scientists agreed that doing a long run unfueled is likely to not be useful in the long run, as in you don't get in the quality and it's harder to recover from. there are some tiny benefits to going without carbs for a long run, but it's generally not worth it unless you really need to be 0.5% more efficient.
personally, I fuel in all of my long runs, although with fewer kcal/hr than I'd do in a race. If I were worried about fueling during a race, I'd take more during training to get used to it, but it's never been an issue for me.
Came in to Boston last night and got in a short but good shake out. Excited for Monday. Probably won't be checking up on this thread until post race but good luck to everyone running. I'll be wearing a red U of Maryland singlet with a grey turtle shell on the back (can't miss it) and black half tights. Decided to wear a tech hat as well to block the rain. No gloves of course with this current forecast.
Let's get it
Good luck everyone! Made it to Boston as well. Looks warm, but if the wind is at the right direction thats the most important.
It has been a pleasure to join you all during this thread. I'll be wearing a singlet blue with red details written "Zatopek". See you in corral 1 / wave 1, #224, will aim finding a group going out in 74:30 or so.
okay spectators: I've browsed the thread for bib numbers. hope nobody is trying to protect their identities here.
BoulderRunner 379
Runthenight 677
rfmaioral 224
tyler_lifts_runs 430
whid 2230 (ouch)
logiceagle 1435 (also ouch)
nbskis 601
4 digit bibs mean you will be passing a LOT of runners in Hopkinton.
I'll post some updates hopefully. Don't know exactly everybody's goals and splits and not gonna bother checking, but 2:29 is the name of the thread, right?