Road Racing and Training Week Ending 1-6-2019

Great discussion about a topic that obviously needed discussing.

Allen, running by HR, there were sections of my last T run that fell into that 6:35-6:40. Maybe I'm being conservative (because some was a bit slower than that and none faster), but VDOT 53.5 is where I wanna be on raceday. I'm trying to sneak up on it, though, rather than go for a full frontal assault. We'll see. Belated well wishes on yer knees.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

I'm trying to sneak up on it, though, rather than go for a full frontal assault.

I like this concept. I think for those who are trying to get a feel for threshold running (and don't want to rely on their watch) it's best to go with something that is more steady state and bump up the effort by the slightest of margins at first.

Agreed with Smoove here 20min tempo ala Daniels is ROUGH

breaking it up is not too bad...

However, Canova's fundamental tempos I think take the cake. I was trying to do them over the summer and were rough. It was of a mental challenge than anything else

Bruin, I honestly have no idea how to evaluate your workouts. You absolutely crush workouts that I would have little chance of completing on a regular basis, and based on your assessment of the perceived effort, it doesn't sound like you are racing the workouts. Honestly, you are either running on terribly calibrated treadmills and 100% downhill tracks or your racing goals are way too soft. I would encourage you to find some more races to use to take some chances and test your fitness and true ability.

I have a slightly different question for Cocoon on the topic of tempo: Why did you go out and run that workout?

Off the top of my head I've got 3 books at home that contain 6 different definitions of a "tempo run".

In the Hansons book it's goal race pace for whichever race you're training for (half or full marathon pace) and can be up to 10-13 miles.

Hudson defines it in 3 separations for different durations (forget the exact numbers off the top of my head but something like 2 hour race pace, 1 hour race pace, 30 minute race pace...but not those numbers)

Daniels defines it this way and should never be done for more than 20 minutes in a bout:

https://imgur.com/a/YdgQ3df

On the other hand, something I've read in a Daniels book, Lydiard book, and Hudson book (and probably in every other coach's book but I don't vividly remember it at the moment so I won't cite it) that is agreed: Know the purpose of the workout.

Every definition people have put forth on the thread probably has a valid source as to why there's is a "tempo" run and all of them can improve aerobic capacity, but that doesn't mean their definition of tempo would have been best suited for the workout you were trying to do. A 20 minute "Hansons tempo" would not have moved the needle very much, for example. A 45 minute "Daniels tempo" would be harmful in its difficulty, etc.

Definitely agree that mile repeats at 5k pace is about the most stressful workout I’ve encountered (and generally avoided in recent years).

Jeremy - those fundamental tempos would be something like 18 miles at 95% of M pace, right? I like those.

Maybe continuous hard runs are harder in Florida for the obvious heat/humidity reasons? :)

Smoove wrote:

Bruin, I honestly have no idea how to evaluate your workouts. You absolutely crush workouts that I would have little chance of completing on a regular basis, and based on your assessment of the perceived effort, it doesn't sound like you are racing the workouts. Honestly, you are either running on terribly calibrated treadmills and 100% downhill tracks or your racing goals are way too soft. I would encourage you to find some more races to use to take some chances and test your fitness and true ability.

Bruin - If I were you I would consider the fact that "VDOT tables" are based on current fitness not PR fitness. Usually this means people are not in PR shape today so they need to back off. On the surface you at least appear to be the opposite. The way you describe your workouts and how you feel day to day (not wicked run down?) I would assume that you're in PR shape on a fair course with a taper at just about any distance today. It's noble to declare your official 5k PR from a real race even if the conditions were poor and it's from a year ago, but if you've run faster than that in the second half of a 2x5k workout then your physiological fitness is not 17:05 shape and that should go into your pacing decision. If you've actually been pushing all the time and don't know what it's like to feel fresh and think you're overtrained and need to back off training paces, only you are able to accurately judge that, but I've never gotten that vibe from you.

Gordon - thanks for your perspective and the image of the book page.

My purpose was to do Daniels tempo for all the reasons he states in that page.

In the past, whatever faster work I have done has been Hanson style marathon tempos and the Hanson style longer repeats (3x2, 4x1.5, etc.).

Wanted to experiment in this cycle with some faster work early in the cycle - hence landed on Daniels tempo and 10x1 on/off type work that you will see in my next weeks report. Doing intervals is also a possibility, but I have a hard time doing them alone.

Gotcha. I'll also note that I've been looking at the Daniels 5k plans lately, and the first introduction of T pace work in Phase II of the 50mpw schedule is only 2x1mi with 1min recovery. Obviously this isn't a suggested workout because it's going to provide ALL those endurance benefits he mentions on that page in such a short workout. I think it's to experiment and get comfortable with finding the right effort without running the risk of doing too much too soon. The schedule doesn't have a steady 3mi @ T like you did until week 4, so there's definitely a process of building into it.

If you've never done anything like it before like you alluded to, it's possible you were doing it at the right effort level (aerobically speaking), but your body just wasn't ready to do it for the maximum amount of time Daniels prescribes, which could explain the soreness your experiencing. I can't say for sure if this is true, but it's possible. (Not sure if its on the page I posted or the next page, but he states to limit any individual "T" bout to 20 minutes. Well trained athletes can do more than one 20minute bout in a session, but with breaks.)

Hey Cocoon - you're generally Bay area, right? If I'm traveling around there do you have any suggested places to run? I've gone to Rancho San Antonio Preserve (way more climbing than I usually deal with), Alviso Marina County Park, Baylands Park (too close to the recycling center and water treatment plant), and Coyote Hills Regional Park (probably my favorite) previously. Generally I just look for green places or bike trails on Google Maps near where I am and see what's up. Anywhere really cool I'm missing? If I'm misremembering and that's not your locale, obviously disregard.

Based in NYC now but used to live in the Bay:

Another one of my common routes just went up and down the Steven's Creek Trail. Shoreline Park is nice too and connected to that! Also Fremont High School / Homestead High School for a track.

Small world syndrome, again!

Bulk of my CIM training was done on Coyote Hills..I will go back there when my hip is 100% again. Right now my training is primarily on Alameda Creek Trail, which is similar to Steven's Creek trail (jot's suggestion).

Sawyer Camp is an excellent spot if you are on the Peninsula.

Depends a lot on where you are staying/working - I can provide you better suggestions with that information.

If you are up for running together, holler at me. We can make it work :)!.

Thanks! Roughly Fremont area, but I was asking now because I was in the process of booking and I sometimes pick hotels based on nearby running availability as much as anything else. Especially if something really interesting is around.

I thought the Fremont track would be a helpful suggestion because I've been up around Chabot College who has an open track previously and thought "Fremont High School" might be closer, but now I see Fremont High School is actually in Sunnyvale, not Fremont. Weird.

Not sure about meet up yet. Sometimes on these trips I end up getting the chance to squeeze in a run at weird times so it may not be so easy for your side, but I'll let you know (meeting ends at 3:30, they want to have a dinner at 5:30, "NOW's my chance to fit in that loooong Hansons tempo" sort of situations).

Gents,

I went to the PT this morning (luckily, she is a runner), and she ruled out a torn meniscus, ACL and MCL. She diagnosed IT band issues and hip weakness.

I'm going to try an easy run after work today, and then really ice and stretch. The Hay IS in the barn, I just need to maintain fitness for another week. Missing 20 miles, a workout, and my last long run won't change anything.

Plus, now I have an excuse in case an ugly giraffe beats me to the finish line ;)

Good news. The pain being on the side of the knee was a tip off there.

You won't damage anything long term by running through it, and it won't impact you on race day.

DBAP

Smoove wrote:

DBAP

+1, which is obviously easy for me to say from the sidelines.

Good news though! If you can handle it, foam rolling has helped me loosen up the IT band way more than stretching in the past.

I hear you on running during work travel. It's basically tough.

Most of the high school tracks in the Fremont, Union City, and Newark area have been under lock and key for some time now, unless there is an ongoing football or soccer game going on. Most of the middle schools have tracks around here - look up Cesar Chavez and IVCMS in Union City.

If you want a ton of climbing, hit up Mission Peak - 2500 ft in 3.5 miles or 2.5 miles depending on the route.

Bdubs - Glad to hear it’s “just” an IT band problem. It’s taper time anyway, but maybe consider working in some pool running to lessen the stress but stay fit/sharp?

Jot Quill - On the same note, glad to hear your rib is doing better.

cocoon wrote:

Need a little bit of guidance from you all experienced folks. How should 20 minute tempos feel during the workout?

Went out yesterday to run a tempo by feel. Watch was in the pocket so that I would not look at pace or heart rate.

Post workout, realized that I ran faster than what Daniels' or any other calculator prescribes for my race times. Maybe I over-cooked it because I am still sore today. I was also a little bit tired going into the tempo workout so the soreness might be stemming from that also - not really sure.

When you are running the workout, should you be able to extend it to one hour on that same day if there is a need (since tempo are supposed to be run at 1 hour effort)? .

For me, tempos are totally by feel - I usually do them on the track, and try to build up over the first 2-3 laps to just under "that red line" (that's how I think of it) - an effort level where I'm working hard, but not digging deep. I then hold it there until the last 800 or so, when I'll pick it up if I feel good (or maintain if I don't). I usually do 4-5 mile tempos (16-20 laps) so the run itself is between 25 and 33 minutes. When I finish, I like to be happy that I'm done, but I don't want to be exhausted.

Another way to put it is that I'm fine with my tempos being a mental strain but not a physical strain. If I ever feel like I'm straining physically during a tempo, I pull the plug - pushing them too hard reduces the gains from them.

I don't like doing 20 minute tempos just because I do like to feel my way into them, so the first 4-5 minutes may not be quite at tempo effort. (my first 400 is often just slightly faster than marathon pace, and then I ease in). A slightly longer tempo means that I can ease into it, and then still get a good 20 minutes at the right effort level.

When doing a tempo, I never feel like I could extend it to a full hour without it being race effort - my tempos are generally around 10 mile race pace (which for me is a bit over an hour) to half-marathon race pace.

That being said, I do think that it is much better to run your tempo too easy than too hard. So I think you still saw a lot of benefit out of that tempo. And it might be interesting as an experiment to keep your tempos at that level for a few weeks, and see how you progress. You might find that you respond better to that intensity than to a harder tempo.