Roger Bannister = A Genetic Freak

well,, wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Wrong. For many years, until Bannister achieved it, the view of the public and experts alike was that sub-four was impossible. Haegg's run was seen as evidence that human limits over the distance had pretty much been reached. That is why we know Bannister's name today, while so many other record holders have vanished into the mists of history. He was the first to conquer the equivalent of a track Everest.

BS.

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/05/the-roger-bannister-effect-the-myth-of-the-psychological-breakthrough.html?v=f003c44deab6

I hate to agree with that turd but, from the book The Perfect Mile:

"Coach Brutus Hamilton, one of the most revered figures in track and field, published “The Ultimate of Human Effort,” listing the perfect records beyond which man could never go for the javelin, the shot put, the 100 meter, the 400 meter, the mile, the 5,000 meter, and the 10,000 meter. Hamilton backed up his analysis with detailed statistics, but many would have considered his word final even if he had jotted these “perfect records” down on a cocktail napkin. To the question, can the mile be run in four minutes flat? Hamilton replied, not quite. The fastest time that would ever be possible, he stated, was 4:01.6"

That is just one example.

And Brutus Hamilton was considered an expert at the time.

The local sprinters near me stumbled on my training to run up a small ski hill.

They're just much faster than I was at running up a 30% grade.

Armstronglivs wrote:

He lied about his training and was on meth wrote:

He lied about his training. Often running at night and "hiking" a lot through the hills on the weekend. And was most likely on meth. Back than it was seen un gentlemen like to train hard. So he lied about his training.

Sources? Thought not.

Four Minute Meth-head: A Confession

iamnotworthy wrote:

For the way this guy trained he should have never been able to accomplish what he did.

Yes, I realize the number of guys under 4 now but you have to consider:

1) His training was completely different. Landy at least had some base running to work with.

2) Track surfaces were slow

3) Track shoes were horrible. I have a pair of spikes from that time period. I don't even know how they put those things on. I feel like ice skates are more comfortable.

4) Lack of sleep while in med school

5) Common thought was that it was not possible to break 4.

Consider the record progression before and after Bannister:

Andersson 1944 4:01

Haag 1945 4:01

Landy 1954 3:58

Ibbotson 1957 3:57

Elliot 1958 3:54

I'm not sure who else broke 4:00 in the 1950s, but I assume it was at least a handful. Were tracks and shoes any better by 1966? (By then sub-four seemed fairly common)

I don't think tracks or shoes improved in the four years after the first sub-four, so that's not particularly relevant (it's impressive in comparison to current shoes and tracks, but people before and after Bannister were running similar times in the same conditions).

Is there any evidence that people thought sub four was impossible? There were at least three people who were trying to break the barrier (Bannister, Landy and Santee) and Andersson and Haag had come close years ago.

I'm not sure what his medical training was like in the 1950s, but I doubt it resembled 21st century "med school."

Bob Schul Country wrote:

2 things:

Bob Schul was more of a freak genetically.

Also, If Bannister ripped off a 13 minute 5k during this stretch he would be a freak, did the guy ever record another time and distance that was impressive?

13 minutes? When Bannister broke 4 the current 5k WR was 3:57, held by Zatopek.

Oops - 13:57.

Hamilton wrote that in 1935. He had already been proved wrong by Hagg running 4:01.4 in 1945. So if anyone continued to believe that 4:01.6 was the fastest possible when 4:01.4 was the world record that just shows them to be ignorant.

Bob Schul Country wrote:

2 things:

Bob Schul was more of a freak genetically.

Also, If Bannister ripped off a 13 minute 5k during this stretch he would be a freak, did the guy ever record another time and distance that was impressive?

Bannisters training partner Chris Chataway, whom Bannister waxed in the mile, went on to set 5k world record, 13:51. Wouldn't surprise that Bannister could have done so if he ran for more years and trained for the distance.

Do you have some examples of Schul's freakiness? He looks similar build to Bannister, just a bit shorter.

Et tu, Brutus wrote:

Hamilton wrote that in 1935.

Prove that.

rtyuetu wrote:

I hate to agree with that turd but, from the book The Perfect Mile:

"Coach Brutus Hamilton, one of the most revered figures in track and field, published “The Ultimate of Human Effort,” listing the perfect records beyond which man could never go for the javelin, the shot put, the 100 meter, the 400 meter, the mile, the 5,000 meter, and the 10,000 meter. Hamilton backed up his analysis with detailed statistics, but many would have considered his word final even if he had jotted these “perfect records” down on a cocktail napkin. To the question, can the mile be run in four minutes flat? Hamilton replied, not quite. The fastest time that would ever be possible, he stated, was 4:01.6"

That is just one example.

And Brutus Hamilton was considered an expert at the time.

Interestingly the entry for Fred Bacon on Wikipedia proclaims:

"1896 Won ¾ mile race in 3.02.4 proving sub 4 min mile was possible"

There's no citation for this and it's not clear to me how it shows that, but it's interesting that someone might have thought it was possible almost 60 years earlier.

[

That said, as a student in Oxford and at Paddington he wouldn't have had easy access to hills.

.

In Oxford, he had plenty of choice

- Headington Hill had a perfect 90 second hill on smooth pavement, perfect for long reps

- South Parks next to it has the same rise on grass, infinite chances for hilly loops and Fartlek

- the University cross country course at Shotover (admittedly a 3 mile run from town) is one huge hill and the course is 3 laps up and down. A proper monster.

Near Paddington the only option is Holland Park but that still lets you get in a long or a short hill within easy jogging distance of his workplace. Plenty for a mid d runner to get conditioned.

Nobody really knows his winter schedule because the write-ups only cover his peak summer sessions. I have heard from a close friend of his that he often did 3 x 1.5 miles hard in winter., and didn’t publicise his mileage. That kind of fills the gap in his schedules. He also won the Varsity XC comfortably, a race over 7.5 miles, and I can’t believe he was dumb enough to peak for that by running 10x400.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Wrong. For many years, until Bannister achieved it, the view of the public and experts alike was that sub-four was impossible. Haegg's run was seen as evidence that human limits over the distance had pretty much been reached.

Two Swedes move the WR 5 seconds in about as many years while nobody else is even competing, and the "experts" think that's the limit? Prove that crack cocaine was popular among experts back then.

Fish and chips wrote:

Bannisters was 6'2" and 154 pounds.

Considering 62% of Brits are overweight or obese i'd say yeah, he's a genetic freak.

We had just ended rationing at that point, so obesity would have been much lower!

rtyuetu wrote:

Et tu, Brutus wrote:

Hamilton wrote that in 1935.

Prove that.

From the book The Perfect Mile:

"Coach Brutus Hamilton, one of the most revered figures in track and field, published “The Ultimate of Human Effort,” listing the perfect records beyond which man could never go for the javelin, the shot put, the 100 meter, the 400 meter, the mile, the 5,000 meter, and the 10,000 meter. Hamilton backed up his analysis with detailed statistics, but many would have considered his word final even if he had jotted these “perfect records” down on a cocktail napkin. To the question, can the mile be run in four minutes flat? Hamilton replied, not quite. The fastest time that would ever be possible, he stated, was 4:01.6. Although Hamilton, who wrote that article in 1935, ...."

Look at the context! We're not talking about hills to run up - we're talking about hill walking. As much as I loved running around South Park I wouldn't call a wander around there hill walking!

Although one of my friends did XC ski around it one year...

In a book by insurance magnate Clement Stone I believe there is a passage on Bannister. It states to the effect that the secret was two fold: 1. Train to exhaustion and then rest. 2. Believe what you want to accomplish is possible.

I don't think the point about him going hill walking the week before his world record was that it was training. It was a break from running, leaving him refreshed. That's what Frank Horwill and the BMC gang always used to say anyway. They claimed this effect could be achieved in other ways. If you always eat the same thing or train in the same location, a small change will take you out of a rut.

Sub Four in the 1950s

6 May 54 Roger Bannister UK 3:59.4

21 Jun 54 John Landy Aus 3:57.9

28 May 55 László Tábori Hun 3:59.0

28 May 55 Chris Chataway UK 3:59.8

28 May 55 Brian Hewson UK 3:59.8

5 May 56 Jim Bailey Aus 3:58.6

1 Jun 56 Ronnie Delany Ire 3:59.0

1 Jun 56 Gunnar Nielsen Den 3:59.1

6 Aug 56 Derek Ibbotson UK 3:59.4

26 Aug 56 István Rózsavölgyi Hun 3:59.0

23 Mar 57 Merv Lincoln Aus 3:58.9

1 Jun 57 Don Bowden USA 3:58.7

19 Jul 57 Stanislav Jungwirth Cze 3:59.1

19 Jul 57 Ken Wood UK 3:59.3

19 Jul 57 Dan Waern Swe 3:59.3

7 Aug 57 Olavi Vuorisalo Fin 3:59.1

4 Sep 57 Roger Moens Bel 3:58.9

25 Jan 58 Herb Elliott Aus 3:59.9

6 Aug 58 Murray Halberg NZ 3:57.5

6 Aug 58 Albie Thomas Aus 3:58.6

3 Sep 58 Zbigniew Orywal Pol 3:59.7

28 May 59 Siegfried Valentin Ger 3:56.5

YMMV wrote:

To throw off their competition wrote:

To throw off their competition. Ever heard of psyops?

He taught Seb and Peter well.

so what old man?

think