Look through the facade, and you will see exactly what is happening. Counties like Kenya and Ethiopia have hundreds of world class athletes but they can only select three athletes to compete in each Event for each world championships or Olympics. There is a lot of money at stake if you manage to compete at such events, so people decide to switch countries to compete for the big payday. In the meantime they claim National records for their new country, for which they often have no deep roots or affiliations. Personally, I think it stinks. They should not be allowed to do this once they are adults (18 years) Lagat is a perfect example. I as an athlete, and fan of our sport will never consider his American records to be legitimate. I consider him to be a great Kenyan athlete, who perhaps doped, not unlike a lot a others at his level. He should have all other liberties attributable to immigrants, except for the ability to compete for our National team or set National records.
My opinion....
Only USATF could be so dumb. The 3:27.40 that Bernard Lagat ran for Kenya in 2004 just got ratified as the American record
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As long as the athlete is a member of USATF when they earn the record then it should be recognized by USATF. It’s their record book.
Does anyone know whether or not he was a USATF member 14 years ago? -
Intentionally tainted sample wrote:
Coached Fitness Blogger wrote:
This seems like a good place to introduce the fact that Lagat is an excused doper...
You mean the tampered with A sample that was tossed out? If Lagat was a doper there would be a real positive test. But he has given hundreds of samples for some 20 years and ..... nothing. So, move along moran, until you can provide a real positive test for Lagat. You have hundreds of samples to make your case. Get to work.
You could have quoted my entire post to include the part about Nike, but I admit the ellipsis serves your dishonest purposes better.
I am guessing you;re the kind of dude who believes that penis-growth pills are effective and that you really can lose 200 pounds in just 30 days (and keep it off!) with the right mix of macronutrients. You are predisposed to love ads aimed at idiots and people prone to high confirmation bias, groups that share similar overlap but are not one and the same.
If you think a long string of supposedly clean samples by a Nike athlete establishes anything meaningful about that athlete's drug use, you are not merely gullible but an imbecile in the clinical sense. Have you heard of the Tour de France and a guy named Lance? That might be a useful place to start for you. (It's also bizarre how you declare Lagat's "A' sample to have been tampered with, as if you do or could have personal knowledge of this.)
Lagat has all of the career hallmarks of a doper, which I will not bother enumerate for the benefit of blinded fanboys who are averse to such input. He knew El G and Ngeny were juiced, so the real question isn't "Did he dope?" but "Why one Earth would he NOT have doped?" One may argue that Lagat is or was no more doped than anyone else, but that rings hollow when a guy keeps getting national records tacked on to his resume.
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Coached Fitness Blogger wrote:
Intentionally tainted sample wrote:
Coached Fitness Blogger wrote:
This seems like a good place to introduce the fact that Lagat is an excused doper...
You mean the tampered with A sample that was tossed out? If Lagat was a doper there would be a real positive test. But he has given hundreds of samples for some 20 years and ..... nothing. So, move along moran, until you can provide a real positive test for Lagat. You have hundreds of samples to make your case. Get to work.
You could have quoted my entire post to include the part about Nike, but I admit the ellipsis serves your dishonest purposes better.
I am guessing you;re the kind of dude who believes that penis-growth pills are effective and that you really can lose 200 pounds in just 30 days (and keep it off!) with the right mix of macronutrients. You are predisposed to love ads aimed at idiots and people prone to high confirmation bias, groups that share similar overlap but are not one and the same.
If you think a long string of supposedly clean samples by a Nike athlete establishes anything meaningful about that athlete's drug use, you are not merely gullible but an imbecile in the clinical sense. Have you heard of the Tour de France and a guy named Lance? That might be a useful place to start for you. (It's also bizarre how you declare Lagat's "A' sample to have been tampered with, as if you do or could have personal knowledge of this.)
Lagat has all of the career hallmarks of a doper, which I will not bother enumerate for the benefit of blinded fanboys who are averse to such input. He knew El G and Ngeny were juiced, so the real question isn't "Did he dope?" but "Why one Earth would he NOT have doped?" One may argue that Lagat is or was no more doped than anyone else, but that rings hollow when a guy keeps getting national records tacked on to his resume.
I see you are just a moran. ……………………………………………………
……………………………… Get to work and have those hundreds of samples Lagat has given over 20 re-tested to prove you have an actual point.
You come across as the same type as the poster named Socal Cush. He no longer posts under that name, and there is a reason. He is a rabid Lagat hater, and shout-from-the-rafters anti-drug type. But he complained too much. He would have set an age 45 record for 1500m except for one thing. He refused to allow himself to be tested. … Odd. So, odd. So afraid that testing would reveal something that he wants to keep hidden, in the vain of—the reason it is okay to take PEDs was because of Lagat's failed A sample, which made it okay to dope. The “look over there” defense. -
This guy was a 2x Olympic champion before Michael Johnson and in the same events, changed allegiance, won 2x again. Go 'Cuse!
And a special mention goes to… Astylos of Croton who, after winning the stadion and diaulos in 488BC, changed his allegiance and ran for Syracuse in the following two Olympic Games, at which he won both races again. The people of Croton did not take kindly to this switch and turned his family house into a prison. -
Coached Fitness Blogger wrote:
He's been running for Nike for his entire pro career
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/kenyan-bernard-lagat-wins-the-wanamaker-mile-in-front-of-fellow-in-picture-id51588542 -
Flounder wrote:
As long as the athlete is a member of USATF when they earn the record then it should be recognized by USATF. It’s their record book.
Does anyone know whether or not he was a USATF member 14 years ago?
That would be pretty silly. Anyone can join USATF. You don't even need a US address. -
Craig T wrote:
So what? wrote:
Who is tangibly "harmed" by this decision? So far, no one.
The top of the second page here says that Keni Harrison and Sharika Nelvis lost their indoor national record to Kallur.
They technically never "had" the record, it was never ratified. -
Just walked into the conversation wrote:
How is Mondo not team USA eligible? As a US citizen, couldn't he qualify for a team USA championship at any time?
No. Mondo has been competing internationally for Sweden since he was 15 or so. To compete at USAs you must be eligible to represent Team USA in competition. He is not.
In order to become eligible he would have to jump through a bunch of hoops with the IAAF and likely sit out of competition for several years. He is happy representing Sweden, that isn't going to happen.
Moving forward, the rules surrounding eligibility to set American records now match the rules surrounding eligibility to compete at USATF Championships. -
Haven't read through all the pages, but am wondering if anybody has gotten Lagat's opinion on this in terms of whether he likes it or thinks it's dumb.
For someone to have the Kenyan and American national record is sort of weird, although maybe not unprecedented to have a record for more than one nation in the same event? -
Agreed it is the right decision according to the rules in place at the time. I also agree what was already hard became harder. Just the same ...
Who is this "anyone trying to break the record" and does he, or will he even exist? It likely will be another East African import.
3:29.30 is already "very very difficult", considering the next best Americans of all-time.
The question was "tangibly harmed" followed by "So far, no one. Maybe one day, some future American that may or may not ever exist, unless he is another Kenyan."
zxcvzxcv wrote:
This is the right decision by the rule and its application to Mondo's case. It does harm anyone trying to break the record in the sense that it makes it very, very difficult. The best runner in the world currently is a second off this time, and no American born athlete has broken 3:30. -
Gfgghfhj wrote:
Wtf Rojo?
You are turning into a full blown Trumper day by day.
The racism, the sexism, the homophobia, the white nationalism. It’s embarrassing. Then you have the nerve to promote Reavis with his runners non partisans.
It’s sad to see an old white man live his life so scared.
But he paced a doper to the WR!!!!! -
max siegel deserves 7 figures? wrote:
In 2004, 18 days before the Olympic final, where Lagat won the silver for Kenya, Bernard Lagat ran 3:27.40 in Zurich. For some stupid reason (well actually Mondo Duplantis), USATF realized Lagat was actually an American citizen at the time and they have now ratified the mark as a USATF record 14 years after the fact - ignoring the fact he was hiding his US citizenship at the time so he could run for Kenya in the Olympics.
Stupidity like this has allowed Mondo Duplantis' 6.05 win at the EUropean champs this year to be recognized as the American pole vault record as well. Moving forward, the rule has been changed but why someone wouldn't just say, "If you weren't representing the US internationally, you aren't getting a record we don't care what the rules were," is beyond me.
Imagine if Lagat wasn't breaking his own record but was instead beating Alan Webb's mile record.
http://www.usatf.org/statistics/records/view.asp?division=american&location=outdoor%20track%20%26%20field&age=open&sport=TF
Double Edged sword in my opinion. Think of Highschool kids who set records in the late late summer pretty much after their senior year and those records are not eligible for HS. I know there was a recent example of this but I can not remember who it was. Maybe Mathew Maton, drew hunter, Ephraimson or Roth in the steeple. I am sure you would be arguing that those times should be High school records because I was back then. Only difference in this instance is that now we have a Kenyan Born athlete doing the exact same thing for the american record.
I also had friend run 15:26 in the new balance outdoor meet and he technically already graduated. Would that be a record for his hs where he did the bulk of his training or for his newly associated college team he is now apart of? If the Usatf only requires you to be a citizen of the USA then he has the record. It is not like Centro wouldve gone under 3:30 anyway. Our next best hope in the 1500 is probably Andrews and other than him I do not see anyone getting close to even 3:30 for us right now. Correct me if I am wrong -
Coached Fitness Blogger wrote:
Intentionally tainted sample wrote:
Coached Fitness Blogger wrote:
This seems like a good place to introduce the fact that Lagat is an excused doper...
You mean the tampered with A sample that was tossed out? If Lagat was a doper there would be a real positive test. But he has given hundreds of samples for some 20 years and ..... nothing. So, move along moran, until you can provide a real positive test for Lagat. You have hundreds of samples to make your case. Get to work.
You could have quoted my entire post to include the part about Nike, but I admit the ellipsis serves your dishonest purposes better.
I am guessing you;re the kind of dude who believes that penis-growth pills are effective and that you really can lose 200 pounds in just 30 days (and keep it off!) with the right mix of macronutrients. You are predisposed to love ads aimed at idiots and people prone to high confirmation bias, groups that share similar overlap but are not one and the same.
If you think a long string of supposedly clean samples by a Nike athlete establishes anything meaningful about that athlete's drug use, you are not merely gullible but an imbecile in the clinical sense. Have you heard of the Tour de France and a guy named Lance? That might be a useful place to start for you. (It's also bizarre how you declare Lagat's "A' sample to have been tampered with, as if you do or could have personal knowledge of this.)
Lagat has all of the career hallmarks of a doper, which I will not bother enumerate for the benefit of blinded fanboys who are averse to such input. He knew El G and Ngeny were juiced, so the real question isn't "Did he dope?" but "Why one Earth would he NOT have doped?" One may argue that Lagat is or was no more doped than anyone else, but that rings hollow when a guy keeps getting national records tacked on to his resume.
So you post no evidence of him doping but just ridicule the individual that corrected you. Quite the argument you are making. -
zxczxcv wrote:
You are just wrong that citizenship is automatic only for birth in U.S. territories. All children of United States citizens are automatic United States citizens.
It should be obvious that I never said nor implied that citizenship is automatic only for births in U.S. territories. If you review my earlier post and remain confused about what it says, let me know what your problem is and I'll try to walk you through it.
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Intentionally tainted sample wrote:
You come across as the same type as the poster named Socal Cush. He no longer posts under that name, and there is a reason. He is a rabid Lagat hater, and shout-from-the-rafters anti-drug type. But he complained too much. He would have set an age 45 record for 1500m except for one thing. He refused to allow himself to be tested. … Odd. So, odd. So afraid that testing would reveal something that he wants to keep hidden, in the vain of—the reason it is okay to take PEDs was because of Lagat's failed A sample, which made it okay to dope. The “look over there” defense.
So your assertion here is until I have concrete evidence of doping by Lagat -- who ran 3:26.34 for 1500 meters, has shown he's willing to bend the rules to get what he wants, and withdrew from a championship meet after his A sample was reported to be positive for EPO -- I should shut my mouth, whereas you have decided that SoCal Cush is a doper based on something many times flimsier. Nice work.
You should also familiarize yourself with the concept of a false dichotomy. Even if SoCal Cush was or is completely juiced, what does that establish about Lagat? Is there only so much EPO to go around?
stateezee wrote:
So you post no evidence of him doping but just ridicule the individual that corrected you. Quite the argument you are making.
The individual who "corrected" me? Oh, aren't you the clever rhetorician!
I obviously have no more concrete evidence in hand that Lagat is a doper than I do that anyone else is a doper. That's just a stupid thing to say and a meaningless bar to set -- hey, can you prove that Barry Bonds doped? --but it's pretty much a given in a discussion where people have chosen to be irrational rather than accept that an athlete they like may have crossed ethical boundaries: "PROVE IT!"
Put it this way -- I'm confident that I'm more confident in Lagat being a doper than you are of his never having doped. You can sit here and "evidence or shut up" all day on a message board, but if it came to it you wouldn't bet anything of value on him being clean. I would bet a lot on him being a doper. It's what most fast track athletes do and have been doing for as long as PEDs have been around. And by the way, I still like him.
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Coached Fitness Blogger wrote:
Intentionally tainted sample wrote:
You come across as the same type as the poster named Socal Cush. He no longer posts under that name, and there is a reason. He is a rabid Lagat hater, and shout-from-the-rafters anti-drug type. But he complained too much. He would have set an age 45 record for 1500m except for one thing. He refused to allow himself to be tested. … Odd. So, odd. So afraid that testing would reveal something that he wants to keep hidden, in the vain of—the reason it is okay to take PEDs was because of Lagat's failed A sample, which made it okay to dope. The “look over there” defense.
So your assertion here is until I have concrete evidence of doping by Lagat -- who ran 3:26.34 for 1500 meters, has shown he's willing to bend the rules to get what he wants, and withdrew from a championship meet after his A sample was reported to be positive for EPO -- I should shut my mouth, whereas you have decided that SoCal Cush is a doper based on something many times flimsier. Nice work.
You should also familiarize yourself with the concept of a false dichotomy. Even if SoCal Cush was or is completely juiced, what does that establish about Lagat? Is there only so much EPO to go around?
stateezee wrote:
So you post no evidence of him doping but just ridicule the individual that corrected you. Quite the argument you are making.
The individual who "corrected" me? Oh, aren't you the clever rhetorician!
I obviously have no more concrete evidence in hand that Lagat is a doper than I do that anyone else is a doper. That's just a stupid thing to say and a meaningless bar to set -- hey, can you prove that Barry Bonds doped? --but it's pretty much a given in a discussion where people have chosen to be irrational rather than accept that an athlete they like may have crossed ethical boundaries: "PROVE IT!"
Put it this way -- I'm confident that I'm more confident in Lagat being a doper than you are of his never having doped. You can sit here and "evidence or shut up" all day on a message board, but if it came to it you wouldn't bet anything of value on him being clean. I would bet a lot on him being a doper. It's what most fast track athletes do and have been doing for as long as PEDs have been around. And by the way, I still like him.
Well gut feelings are the best! -
polevaultpower wrote:
Flounder wrote:
As long as the athlete is a member of USATF when they earn the record then it should be recognized by USATF. It’s their record book.
Does anyone know whether or not he was a USATF member 14 years ago?
That would be pretty silly. Anyone can join USATF. You don't even need a US address.
You are correct. I could have sworn you had to be a US citizen. . I just checked and the online sign up has a check box for non us citizens. USATF just wants money. -
westsouthrunner wrote:
Double Edged sword in my opinion. Think of Highschool kids who set records in the late late summer pretty much after their senior year and those records are not eligible for HS. I know there was a recent example of this but I can not remember who it was. Maybe Mathew Maton, drew hunter, Ephraimson or Roth in the steeple. I am sure you would be arguing that those times should be High school records because I was back then. Only difference in this instance is that now we have a Kenyan Born athlete doing the exact same thing for the american record.
I also had friend run 15:26 in the new balance outdoor meet and he technically already graduated. Would that be a record for his hs where he did the bulk of his training or for his newly associated college team he is now apart of? If the Usatf only requires you to be a citizen of the USA then he has the record. It is not like Centro wouldve gone under 3:30 anyway. Our next best hope in the 1500 is probably Andrews and other than him I do not see anyone getting close to even 3:30 for us right now. Correct me if I am wrong
USATF does not track or ratify high school records.
The NFHS keeps high school records that only count in-season prep-only meets that have a certain number of teams.
Track & Field News keeps high school records that count basically any legitimate mark by a non-professional high schooler in any legitimate competition through August 31st after their senior year, or whenever they start their college classes.
You are not "part" of your college team for competition purposes until that first indoor season your freshman year.
