I'm curious about the ratification of the 60H record and how it affects Nelvis and K. Harrison. Both run 7.70 (under Lolo's 7.72 American Record) and then Susanna Kallur gets ratified at 7.68. They lose the co American record and it probably hurts them both financially as well (american records bonus in contracts and such).
Only USATF could be so dumb. The 3:27.40 that Bernard Lagat ran for Kenya in 2004 just got ratified as the American record
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If hes an American Citizen so what? wrote:
Many countries welcome dual citizenship. I don’t know if Kenya is one of those but if he was an American citizen why should it not count?
Indeed he was a citizen of the US when he ran 3:27.4. The morans who 'run' our sports refused to let him run for America, and told him to run for Kenya, because they couldn't get the paperwork processed. It is a wonder that morans who 'run' our sports can wipe their behinds since so much 'paperwork' is involved. -
It's about time, and amazing that it required Mondo Duplantis, a guy born and raised in this country but not competing for it, to get Lagat the record. There have been threads here about this for at least eight years now, probably going back to 2005, when the news about his citizenship became known.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3674509&page=1
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8960674&page=3 -
rojo wrote:
Westside wrote:
USATF didn’t seek out these records, numbnuts. The athletes both fought for them legally.
You are wrong. The athletes didn't fight for them legally. You think Susanna Kallur called up USATF and said she wanted the US indoor 60 record? You think Lagat called up for some reason 14 years later and said "Hey I realize I'm technically supposed to be the AR holder with a faster time, please lower it."
No, what happened is because of Mondo, people realized the rule was stupid as hell and then people pointed out that Kallur was born in America and thus a citizen (dumb rule - that portion of the 14th ammendment needs to go) and that Lagat was actually a citizen in 2004 even though he kept it as a secret until 2005.
What is interesting is that I read that at the time Kenya didn't recognize dual citizenship. So if we are going to apply USATF's logic to the end, then technically Lagat should retroactively be DQd from the 2004 Olympics as his 2004 Kenyan citizenship should be invalidated after the fact if we have to follow every rule to the letter.
USATF should have just ignored the freaking rule - what the poster above is saying isn't true - none of those people are going to fight for it - or pass a new one saying, "We're only going to recognize ARs for people representing the US at the time and that includes in the past."
Or just set a time limit for these things. It should not be a nr 14 years after fact. That would be the more objective route to exclude this. -
Wow21 wrote:
rojo wrote:
Westside wrote:
USATF didn’t seek out these records, numbnuts. The athletes both fought for them legally.
You are wrong. The athletes didn't fight for them legally. You think Susanna Kallur called up USATF and said she wanted the US indoor 60 record? You think Lagat called up for some reason 14 years later and said "Hey I realize I'm technically supposed to be the AR holder with a faster time, please lower it."
No, what happened is because of Mondo, people realized the rule was stupid as hell and then people pointed out that Kallur was born in America and thus a citizen (dumb rule - that portion of the 14th ammendment needs to go) and that Lagat was actually a citizen in 2004 even though he kept it as a secret until 2005.
What is interesting is that I read that at the time Kenya didn't recognize dual citizenship. So if we are going to apply USATF's logic to the end, then technically Lagat should retroactively be DQd from the 2004 Olympics as his 2004 Kenyan citizenship should be invalidated after the fact if we have to follow every rule to the letter.
USATF should have just ignored the freaking rule - what the poster above is saying isn't true - none of those people are going to fight for it - or pass a new one saying, "We're only going to recognize ARs for people representing the US at the time and that includes in the past."
Or just set a time limit for these things. It should not be a nr 14 years after fact. That would be the more objective route to exclude this.
A time limit is a dumb idea. Why not just erase any record after it reaches a certain age (vintage) so the younger people have the opportunity to set a new record and not work so hard; even if their new record is slower than an older record. ... Make all the sense in ???? ... It make no sense at all. -
e.g.
And rabbiting, although a difficult job in some aspects, pays very well in the world of running. Outside of appearance fees (which I definitely don't get) it is the only guaranteed payday in the sport (assuming you do your job correctly).
Instead of hearing people cheering for Khalid Khannouchi, Paula Radcliffe or Catherine Ndereba, all I could hear were the 2 loudest voices in the crowd yelling, "LetsRun.com, yeah LetsRun.com". I couldn't help but laugh.
Once we hit the 25 mile marker, I started jogging with a big smile on my face. My job was done, Paula would smash the record, and I could enjoy the final mile.
And I definitely enjoyed it. The marathon is a lot more enjoyable when you can jog it home. Once I started jogging, I began to wonder how slow I'd run it. For I figured if I had gone this far, I might as well get under the Olympic Trials "A" qualifying time of 2:20:00, but I wasn't going to pick it up from my jog. The only good thing is after you've run 25 miles at 5:15 pace, a "jog" apparently is around 6 minute pace. So I finished in 2:18:10 and got a marathon pr to boot.
As for my own "race", or whatever you want to call it, it was definitely the highlight of my year for 2 reasons. First, 2002 had been very frustrating for me in terms of my own running and I thought my comeback from injury was progressing very slowly. But I was surprised with how good I felt during the marathon, and ended up even setting a pr.
It confirmed to me that I can run a lot faster in the marathon. (Whoops. That never happened.)
And secondly Chicago was a highlight of my year, because I got to do my little part to help make history. Paula Radcliffe is simple (sic) an amazing athlete.
IT'S ALMOST LIKE SHE DOESN'T EVEN GET TIRED DURING THE MARATHON. (ha ha ha)
I don't doubt for a second that she could have set the world record without any male escorts, that's how good she is. But nonetheless, after the race, her and her husband Gary must have thanked me a thousand times for doing what the race had paid me to do. That meant a lot to me.
I had met Paula and Gary at Gerard Hartmann's office in Ireland and had seen first hand what an amazing athlete Paula is, but also her complete dedication, (and I mean total dedication that I honestly believe no other athlete in the world has) to the sport. Plus, I had seen the team environment that surrounds her and how it is totally focussed on making Paula the best athlete she can be.
And now that means being the best athlete in the history of the sport.
It's hard to believe but a year ago this week before Paula won the London marathon, she was regarded as a gallant loser by all of Britain. But those around her, never once doubted in her abilities, for they had seen her day to day dedication and talent. Gerard Hartmann's office is really also an athletics museum of sorts. Its walls are covered with pictures and memorabilia from virtually every track and field star you can think of.
However, when I was there, one athlete was conspicuously missing from the walls, Paula Radcliffe, the athlete Gerard works with more than anyone else. I asked when he'd put her up on the walls. "When she wins a Gold Medal" was his reply indicating that's how good she was.
(It turns out that Paula's OOC hemoglobin level of 16.2 g/dL at Monte Carlo, Monaco in 2012 would of caused Ms. Radcliffe to be BANNED FROM COMPETITION IN CROSS-COUNTRY SKIING . . . and the equivalent 48.6% hematocrit (= 51.6% in a male) was also above the 47% cutoff hematocrit level used in female professional cyclists, which would of caused Ms. Radcliffe to also be BANNED FROM COMPETITION IN PROFESSIONAL CYCLING. Oh well. It's not a big surprise.)
"If I was a small part of Paula's team for a day, it means a lot to me."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2018/02/16/paula-radcliffe-reveals-tore-colon-smashing-marathon-world-record/
http://www.letsrun.com/2003/escortingpaula.php
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/11913981.Pythonesque_Radcliffe_crushes_field_Paula_worth_millions_after_world_best/
https://news.sky.com/story/radcliffe-give-athletes-lie-detector-tests-10340201
Have a nice day.
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rojo wrote:
No, what happened is because of Mondo, people realized the rule was stupid as hell and then people pointed out that Kallur was born in America and thus a citizen (dumb rule - that portion of the 14th ammendment needs to go) and that Lagat was actually a citizen in 2004 even though he kept it as a secret until 2005.
No, geography does not determine an individual's nationality. Only the nationality of the PARENTS. Frank Shorter was born in Germany, but he has not and never has been a German citizen. Mo Farah's mother is Somali and father is British so he has dual citizenship.
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Les wrote:
No, geography does not determine an individual's nationality.
The only reason that Kallur is a US citizen is because she was born in New York. -
I'm sorry, but are we talking about the same 3:30 1500 meters?. It is practically impossible to go couch to 1500 and run that fast. I'm assuming this is a joke.
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Westside wrote:
Their agents and reps get wind of this rule and they threaten to bring legal action.
Errr.....who is going to bring legal action, and why? Unless Sydney Maree wants to claim loss of earnings for having his celeb value cut by no longer being hailed as AR holder by his secretary as he walks into the office of his asset management fund in Johannesburg (and this seems unlikely), can you find anyone else who has been disadvantaged?
With any of these national lists, you have a database of performance around the world, and you have some national criterion to filter it by. It's up to the country in question to decide if it means
- fastest by someone with our passport at that time
- fastest by someone eligible to be a citizen if they didn't have a passport ("born in the USA")
- fastest on our soil
- fastest by someone with our passport and no other
- fastest by someone really blue-collar who doesn't speak a word of anything foreign
etc etc
Whatever your criteria, if new info comes to light, you need to redo your "database query" (or "trawl through the archives") and update the list. It would look very stupid if you had different criteria for different events
Given all this, who on earth wouldn't you want to take credit for legit performances by your citizens? -
Moving forward, you will need to be Team USA-eligible to set American Records.
The rules committee was not comfortable making a rule retroactive. So any marks that _should_ have been ratified in the past, under the old rules, were, but marks by dual citizens like Mondo, set 2019 or later, will not be American Records if they are not Team USA eligible.
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If hes an American Citizen so what? wrote:
Many countries welcome dual citizenship. I don’t know if Kenya is one of those but if he was an American citizen why should it not count?
Kenya does not allow dual citizenship. If Lagat had come clean, he would not have been able to compete for Kenya in the 2004 Olympics. He didn't have USA citizenship long enough before the 2004 Olympics to compete for the USA, so he would have missed out on the 2004 Olympics. -
Craig T wrote:
Les wrote:
No, geography does not determine an individual's nationality.
The only reason that Kallur is a US citizen is because she was born in New York.
As compared to Germany-born Frank Shorter? -
asdghj wrote:
If hes an American Citizen so what? wrote:
Many countries welcome dual citizenship. I don’t know if Kenya is one of those but if he was an American citizen why should it not count?
Kenya does not allow dual citizenship. If Lagat had come clean, he would not have been able to compete for Kenya in the 2004 Olympics. He didn't have USA citizenship long enough before the 2004 Olympics to compete for the USA, so he would have missed out on the 2004 Olympics.
Lagat was a US citizen one the day he took his oath, there is no waiting period beyond that point. "USA citizenship long enough" is a BS made up rule simply to cover for the time it take to "get to" the paperwork. Once some is legally a US citizen is all that is necessary. Leave the discussions on when someone is a real citizen to the US government. -
Les wrote:
rojo wrote:
No, what happened is because of Mondo, people realized the rule was stupid as hell and then people pointed out that Kallur was born in America and thus a citizen (dumb rule - that portion of the 14th ammendment needs to go) and that Lagat was actually a citizen in 2004 even though he kept it as a secret until 2005.
No, geography does not determine an individual's nationality. Only the nationality of the PARENTS. Frank Shorter was born in Germany, but he has not and never has been a German citizen. Mo Farah's mother is Somali and father is British so he has dual citizenship.
Your understanding of birthright citizenship is even worse than Rojo's. From its beginning, the U.S. has recognized citizenship based on birth within the territory of the U.S., with certain well-known exceptions. The Fourteenth Amendment expressly incorporated that principle into the U.S. Constitution. As the Supreme Court has stated, "the Fourteenth Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes." United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898).
As for Lagat's performance in Zurich, I'm glad to see that USATF has finally recognized it as the U.S. record. I've spent quite a lot of time over the years looking for an explanation for USATF's decision -- apparently at or around the time of the 2005 annual meeting -- not to recognize the performance as the U.S. record, and I've never found one, which led me to believe that the decision was not based on any principle that USATF was willing to articulate publicly. Whatever one thinks of Lagat's decision not to disclose his U.S. citizenship publicly or to the Kenyan federation until after the 2004 Olympics, I'm still not aware of any rules supporting USATF's prior position.
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Rojo and I are both half-right. Rojo on the 14th Amendment and I on the nationality of parents. Both qualify you for American citizenship at birth.
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Jenny Simpson or Shelby should go after that 2,000m AR.
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polevaultpower wrote:
Moving forward, you will need to be Team USA-eligible to set American Records.
The rules committee was not comfortable making a rule retroactive. So any marks that _should_ have been ratified in the past, under the old rules, were, but marks by dual citizens like Mondo, set 2019 or later, will not be American Records if they are not Team USA eligible.
How is Mondo not team USA eligible? As a US citizen, couldn't he qualify for a team USA championship at any time?
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Wtf Rojo?
You are turning into a full blown Trumper day by day.
The racism, the sexism, the homophobia, the white nationalism. It’s embarrassing. Then you have the nerve to promote Reavis with his runners non partisans.
It’s sad to see an old white man live his life so scared. -
OP:
Rules are rules.
M A G Again!
