I second that the 10% rule is BS. If you do that for even a month if u have never run those distances before the chance of injury is enormous. I'd slowly work up to 40 mph, hold that for a couple months with a few back weeks here and there, then slowly go up to 50, rinse repeat. The good news is that most males dont need 90 mpw to break 20, I'd be surprised if u didnt do it after running 40-50 for a while.
Fab 40’s wrote:
The slower you run the majority of your miles, the more likely you are to incur a heavy cost impacting the ground and spending time in a stance phase on the ground.
As a new and very slow runner, this has not been my experience at all. I went from running at a comfortable nose-breathing pace to using a heart rate monitor and doing the Maffetone thing. I lost about ~2 minutes/mile, had to walk occasionally because I would go over the heart rate cap if I wasn't paying attention, took a few days to figure out how I could even keep a running gait at that slow of a pace, etc. etc. But I also went from knees, feet, and shins hurting all the time to basically no pain at ~1.5x the weekly mileage.
house of gruel wrote:
As a new and very slow runner, this has not been my experience at all. I went from running at a comfortable nose-breathing pace to using a heart rate monitor and doing the Maffetone thing. I lost about ~2 minutes/mile, had to walk occasionally because I would go over the heart rate cap if I wasn't paying attention, took a few days to figure out how I could even keep a running gait at that slow of a pace, etc. etc. But I also went from knees, feet, and shins hurting all the time to basically no pain at ~1.5x the weekly mileage.
He said Maffetone! Get him, boys!!!!!
Boo 10% wrote:
I second that the 10% rule is BS. If you do that for even a month if u have never run those distances before the chance of injury is enormous. I'd slowly work up to 40 mph, hold that for a couple months with a few back weeks here and there, then slowly go up to 50, rinse repeat. The good news is that most males dont need 90 mpw to break 20, I'd be surprised if u didnt do it after running 40-50 for a while.
40 mph, eh?
Get him, boys!!!!
Realistically? About 3 years. This is based on going from 30 mpw at the OP's age to one peak week in the mid-80s during a marathon buildup 3 years later. 5K dropped from 21s to high 17s, HM down to 1:20s, marathon in the low 2:5X range.
Need A Base wrote:
Doubt it’s my weight, I’m squite slim and weigh less than I did in high school
.5’7 133lbs.
Ok. I've read everything you've written and felt the need to comment.
I turned 39 last month.
I stand at 5'5 and 120lbs (165cm, 8.5 stone, 54kg).
I'm currently running a little over 60mpw, and have been doing so since the beginning of December. I raced all through autumn on a base of 40-50mpw, built up from 25mpw at the beginning of the year, after coming back from injury at the end of September 2017.
I cannot stress this enough to build up your mileage slowly. Just like in baking or cooking, you can always add time or seasoning, you cannot subtract. 10% is bullocks, you need to listen to your body and add miles or back off as needed.
While I am by no means fast, I am locally competitive (read age-grouper) and can place if the field is small enough.
Everything being said, you need to concern yourself with running faster, not farther.
One day a week should be dedicated to speed workouts; it doesn't matter if you're doing strides, repeats/intervals, fartleks, or a progression run, the point is going faster than normal. Not quite race pace, but very close to it. You need to teach your body that fast (for you) won't hurt you.
One day a week should be dedicated to a steady-state (read tempo) run. This is somewhere between your marathon pace and your 10k pace. It shouldn't be hard in the sense you are exhausted at the end of your run, but you should definitely feel like you worked out.
One day a week should be dedicated to long-distance. Run this slower than marathon pace but not easy-pace.
The other 3-4 days should all be done at easy/recovery pace. If you feel like it, one of these days can be nearly as long (maybe 2-3 miles less) as your long run, but again E-A-S-Y.
Never avoid hills. Run all the hills you want, but run them slowly.
Most importantly, because you are and I nearly am Master Runners, stretching, foam-rolling, & cross-training is key to our development.
Once you get your speed, then increase your distance.
Best of luck & happy holidays.
do you need to triple your mileage to break 3:10?
44 y.o here, currently doing around 20mph and running intermittently on the way back from a hamstring strain. I was at 50 mph when it happened plus daily cycling commute to work (13 mile round trip x 5 days). If you're throwing in effort/speedwork among your runs, a sub 20 will come soon enough. If you're not, then why the f not? The 10% rule others have mentioned is pretty sensible, and that's as simple as just going out for a few extra minutes on each run and/or running more often if you're not running 6-7 days. Doubling might come into play as well. Be patient.
One thing I'm interested in is what are your work/family commitments? 90mpw is a stack of running for non-competitive runners (not so much for the elite/sub-elite folk) and are you in a climate/location that allows year-round daily running without dealing with weather/climate extremes? As someone who has similar goals (sub 3/sub 84/sub 38/sub 18), I'm quite interested in your responses.
Best of luck.
if you were running 50 mph of course you strained a hamstring.
You can probably get there, but the two most important things are patience and listening to your body. Also, after a couple of weeks of increasing the volume, make sure to throw in week of reduced volume so your body can absorb the training.
YARLY wrote:
if you were running 50 mph of course you strained a hamstring.
Well played! Worst thing is, the "h" and the "w" aren't even close on the keyboard; not sure how I managed to stuff that up...
Sadly I cannot give a clear answer as it depends on the person.
Are you gifted in recovery and injury resistance?
I remember I was quite fragile and it took me 2-3 years to crack 55mpw without getting sidelined from injury.
After those years my coach only had me increase max seasonal weekly mileage by 5 miles per week (no more than 10 extra miles per year). That did the trick and I am now more resistant to injury at 90-105mpw. However, that is only my experience and coach and I were quite conservative due to my previous injuries. Now having been running 90+ for 4 seasons I can jump from 30 mpw to 90mpw in about 2 weeks.
i built up to 90 mpw over about 5 years. then i averaged about 90 for 8 years. i did it because i did not run in college and i wanted to get my marathon time in the low 2:30s. i worked full time. it was tough to get there. going up to 50 mpw it not so hard. going to 70 mpw from 50 mpw is many times harder . if you plan on going to 90 the issue is not can you get there from 70 , the issue is can you sustain it and have a life. finally after being at 90 mpw for a year, i actually got used to it but it does really control your life. diet, sleeping, no late hours. i would do it again but it is not for everyone. trust me. good luck if you can get there and sustain your 5k should be more lie high 15s.
Need A Base wrote:
But what I am wondering is would it be sensible to build up to 60 mpw over the next few months like this:
1 month at 30 mpw
1 month at 40 mpw
1 month at 50 mpw
1 month at 60 mpw
And then maintain the 60 mpw for a few months? I am aware that building up to high miles (70-80+) takes quite a bit of time.
Even at age 45, if you're strong, resilient, and have maintained an active and healthy lifestyle as you say, I think your proposed 4-month increase from 30 mpw to 60 mpw should be fine.
I'm 59 now, and over the years, I have often doubled my mileage over much shorter time frames.
At age 57, after years of very minimal training (0-10 mpw), for 11 months I was consistent at 15-20, running just over 20 minutes for 5K and 3:25 marathon.
Then, over a one-month span, I increased the volume to 40-50 mpw, and added workouts. After four months I ran 18:58 for 5K (and 3:07 marathon later that year).
Now, increasing to 90 mpw may require much, much more caution. I have no experience with that! For the 5K, I think dedicated workouts will yield better results, anyway.
OP should try adding a session of 6x1k with 2 minutes rest at 5k pace each week.
Increasing mileage is unlikely to get you much faster. The time/effort spent running 90 mile weeks can be better spent on hard sessions.
Not sure if this was stated, but have you ever run that kind of mileage before? If 30 mpw is your peak mileage over the last 5 years or so (on a consistent basis that is), then your buildup is too fast. I’d recommend closer to 5 MPW.
Consistency is way more important than peak mileage. People get too obsessed with hitting X mpw, instead of trying to hit a mileage goal over a longer period, e.g. 6 months.
While there all a lot of individual/personal factors that should influence how quickly YOU can make that type of a jump in milage (if it is even smart or feasible for YOU)- prior training, work schedule, ability to rest, nutrition, cross training included etc, etc, the EMPHASIS of my answer is do not do a build up like this w/o a lot of thought and planning, OR too quickly. At 45 you will not RECOVER nor HEAL as quickly as when you were 20-30. Use your head...
Need A Base wrote:
Breaking 20 is a short term goal, I think I might be able to achieve it within a year. I would like to get to sub 18 or at least sub 19 but I’m thinking I will need a pretty large base to get there.
But what I am wondering is would it be sensible to build up to 60 mpw over the next few months like this:
1 month at 30 mpw
1 month at 40 mpw
1 month at 50 mpw
1 month at 60 mpw
And then maintain the 60 mpw for a few months? I am aware that building up to high miles (70-80+) takes quite a bit of time.
I went from 30 to 65 over 4 months and got a stress fracture. The next year I ran something like 30-35-40-35-40-45-40 and nearly got injured again when I got to 50. Sample size 1, but it’s a data point for you.
I was in a similar position to you a few years ago (but slightly younger) and I broke 20 once I got 30-35/week regularly. I broke 19 when I got 40-45 regularly. I think to break 18 you’ve got to start looking at your training cycle to make sure you’re knocking out all the right types of runs plus have a good cardio engine built up-which takes some time at the higher mileages. If you’re just trying to do 5k, I think 50/week is plenty to run mid 18’ish within a couple years. Marathon is a beast I haven’t conquered yet because I don’t want to run a 3 hr + time and don’t think I can break 3 yet so I can’t help you there.
hobbyJogger01 wrote:
Need A Base wrote:
Breaking 20 is a short term goal, I think I might be able to achieve it within a year. I would like to get to sub 18 or at least sub 19 but I’m thinking I will need a pretty large base to get there.
But what I am wondering is would it be sensible to build up to 60 mpw over the next few months like this:
1 month at 30 mpw
1 month at 40 mpw
1 month at 50 mpw
1 month at 60 mpw
And then maintain the 60 mpw for a few months? I am aware that building up to high miles (70-80+) takes quite a bit of time.
I went from 30 to 65 over 4 months and got a stress fracture. The next year I ran something like 30-35-40-35-40-45-40 and nearly got injured again when I got to 50. Sample size 1, but it’s a data point for you.
I was in a similar position to you a few years ago (but slightly younger) and I broke 20 once I got 30-35/week regularly. I broke 19 when I got 40-45 regularly. I think to break 18 you’ve got to start looking at your training cycle to make sure you’re knocking out all the right types of runs plus have a good cardio engine built up-which takes some time at the higher mileages. If you’re just trying to do 5k, I think 50/week is plenty to run mid 18’ish within a couple years. Marathon is a beast I haven’t conquered yet because I don’t want to run a 3 hr + time and don’t think I can break 3 yet so I can’t help you there.
I will not attempt the marathon yet for the same reason, I want to get in the mid 18s at least before I start attempting marathons because as far as I know, that is the minimum amount of time in the 5k needed to go sub 3.
I do a lot of speed-work at 5:30-6 min mile pace training to stay in shape for football, mostly 400m repeats in the park which I will do like this: the first 200m in 50 seconds (hardish jog) and then the last 200m in sub 40. I will rest for 2-3 minutes and do this anywhere between 6-8 times. I am versatile and sometimes do 200s in 35-37 and sometimes do 800s in 2:50-3:05. So anaerobic speed-work is a regular for me.
Recently I managed to drop some time off my 5k and my used to be moderate tempo paces are now easy ppaces and the ONLY change I made to my training was just running 10 more miles per week at my easy pace (8-9 min miles). So I definitely think my problem is a lack of base because I was pumping out speed workout after soeed workout for months and nkt getti g anywhere, then as soon as I add more miles BAM my times dropped within a month, and quite dramatically. This is my fixation on milage, because I feel like it’s what’s going to help me more than anything else. I am currently doing 45 minute runs on a normal day.
The 5k does not realistically corespond to the marathon, so you’re goals should be one or the other. I can run a 3:20 marathon but according to many race charts I should be under 21 minutes in the 5K, but that’s not ever happened. It requires different types of training.
You’re at 30mpw mow, give yourself time to continue to build your base and get some solid distance training under your belt before you try to raise your weekly mileage significantly. It took me 4-5 years to be able to log average 60 mile weeks, topping out near 80 before a marathon.
There’s definitely many ideas regarding this, but I’ve had the most success with the idea of “build your FAR before you build your FAST”. Easy runs are grossly underestimated. However, these are the runs that strengthen the muscles, build bone density, and help connective tissue to adapt. Folks get injured way too often by doing too much speed work before their bodies are ready. Easy runs based on relative effort or heart rate are going to be the best thing to help you start building your weekly mileage. Find a plan that will have you do no more than 20% of your total weekly mileage as hard running (tempo, LT, track, etc).
Don’t be in a rush to build the miles too quickly...build a solid base to help resist injury and go from there. When you look back 15-20 years from now you’ll be glad you did- especially when some of your age group rivals have to give up running because they did something stupid and got hurt when it was totally preventable. Best of luck!
Need A Base wrote:
I am 45 years old and I have an short term goal of breaking 20 in the 5k and eventually 3:10 in the marathon. I have been running fir a few years now and currently run 22s in the 5k on 25-30 miles each week. Realistically, how much faster can I get on much higher milage and how long will it take me to get there?
I am 47. Been running for only 4 years. Up until recently I only was running max 30 miles a week. Lately I got up to 40-45 miles a week, in the peak weeks for my most recent marathon training. It's been said on these boards that going from 30mpw to 40 mow you see the greatest gains. That was my experience.
After a successful marathon, I ran a 19:55 5K.
I think you will be surprised how much faster you will get, and you won't need to go all the way to 90 mpw.
The key for me was doing the non-running things such as foam rolling, massage stick for the calves, lacrosse ball for the PF, etc.