Is Galen Rupp's easy pace the reason he's heads and shoulders above everyone else in U.S Marathon running?

Takinadump wrote:

Hall would run 8 minute pace when he felt beat up and this is well known. It's what I usually tell people when they say they can't run slower. You think you're too good for 8 minute pace when Ryan Hall wasn't? Are you better than Ryan Hall? No. KK I'm not sure of. I'm friends with a Kenyan who was once a pacer for Edna Kiplagat and he has a 10k pb of 28:56 at altitude, many elite Kenyans run very slow on easy days. Although he's a masters runner now he is still very fast and his easy days are taken at 10 minute pace, with warmups for workouts even slower.

to be fair though, Ryan Hall trained himself into the ground to the point of retirement, believed "god" was his coach, and was generally a head-in-the-clouds space-case since he became good in high school

so, throw that anecdote out the window....

Ryan Hall ran himself into the ground because he did not properly understand progressive overload.He also forgot to touch on his top end speed. And did not eat enough as evident by his low t levels. If he would have a bit more fat on his frame his career would have lasted a lot longer. But he was too manic(as evident by him saying God is his coach) and his craziness is the reason for it. This is why his wife has had a much better marathon career, see her remarks about how she almost never weighs yourself. I believe she seen what happened to her husband when one gets too lean. Learned from his mistake and we are seeing the results.

The whole point of easy runs is building an aerobic base and recovering from workouts. For elite athletes with an extremely long and voluminous training history, recovery is by far the most important factor since their base is already so established, which means that the only real value to easy miles is maintenance and recovery. I think its pretty illogical to say that the reason U.S. marathoners who weren't national-level performers in high-school or competing for championships in college aren't the same level as Galen Rupp (3:50i, 12:58, 26:44, 4:01 and 13:37 in HS) is the pace of their recovery runs. You look at the best US marathoners of recent years - Rupp, Ritz, Hall, even Meb. All of them were elite at an early age.

I don't know why this is even a discussion, to be honest. The reason that most of our 2:12 marathoners aren't faster isn't that their easy pace is too slow (and 5:30 for recovery is ridiculous - that's barely 30 seconds slower than their race pace), it's because THEY ARE 2:12 MARATHONERS. Seriously, look at how these guys have performed at each level and tell me they should be competitive against the best, most talented athletes in the world on a consistent basis - it just isn't realistic.

evolutionofeasyruns wrote:

I've been trying to figure out why the marathon in the U.S is struggling to produce sub 2:12 runners.

The best threads are the hobbyjoggers trying to figure out why the 2:12 guys are struggling.

Keep it up, they're all counting on you I'm sure.

It's more to do with him being a sub 27 runner and being better than the rest.

You clearly don´t know the difference between general aerobic runs and recovery runs. Very little of a runners mileage are recovery runs. When I was a 2,27 marathoner in the 1990s I could do most of my mileage around 4 min/km (30 s/km below MP) without even trying - and I ran up to 170 km/week. Only after really monster workouts did I feel the need to run really slow.

"He ran a 13:37 5k in high school. He ran 3:50 mile indoors. 26:44 10,000m... etc

That probably means something."

Yes, it means something. It explains why he's a 2:06 marathoner.

It does not explain why no one else can break 2:12.

I'll say this: there were far more 2:09-2:14 marathoners back in the late 70's early 80's. Yet, these runners had fairly modest 5k-1/2 marathon times compared to today.

Next I'll note that in the 70's and 80's our easy runs were faster. Most runners did some sort of Lydiard type variation. An offseason with lots of long moderate runs (in that 5:20-6:00 range) and very few tempos (maybe some random road races now and again). As the real racing season approached, then intervals, time trials, and fartleks were added.

Maybe that type of training is better for marathons, while todays training is better for 5k-1/2 marathon. (Also note that 1/2 marathon times today are better, and not as better than 5/10k times compared to the 70/80's).

guys--come on. it's not easy pace. Its not even hard work or natural talent....

Is Galen Rupp a 2:06 guy because he runs 5:30 easy days or does he run 5:30 easy days because he's a 2:06 guy?

round and round wrote:

let's think about this wrote:

We're talking a once in a generation talent here in the states. Can't really compare anything he does to many others.

This post is the truth.

This post is completely false.

Sure talent plays a part in everything, but if you think that Rupp is so much more talented than every other professional runner in the US that he can run a marathon SIX MINUTES faster than them, you are delusional.

There are a solid group of US runners that are around ~2:12 for the marathon. Sure, one or even a few of them could probably have a great day and run 2:10. They are all talented guys. And then there is Rupp, running a mile ahead of everyone else.

What do you think is more likely?

1. Rupp is simply more talented than everyone. He has almost as much more talent than Chris Derrick (just an example of 2:12) as Chris Derrick does than Deena Kastor (2:12 to 2:19).

Or

2. Rupp has had about 15 years of uninterrupted training with zero significant injuries. He has had a single coach directing his training since high school, with a long term approach. He has the support of Nike to use any training or recovery tool money can buy, experimental or mainstream. He has had multiple TUEs and potentially hormonal supplementation (the Lauren Fleshman argument) to allow him to train consistently at a very high level. He lives with complete focus on running to a greater extent than most American runners, with a coach who attempts to control every aspect of the environment around him to avoid any potential setbacks.

Ah who knows, it is probably just talent.

5'20" /5'30" Galen Rupp easy pace? Eliud Kipchoge and more in general Kenyans marathoners easy pace is slower

than that for sure and they are the fastest in the world. At that pace Kipchoge can do his 30k and 40 k long run

every week but not faster than that , more easily slower than that.

So absolutely no , thats not the reason. In no race you will keep that pace, (maybe if Kipchoge or Rupp will do 100km that can be their race pace) but from a training point of view, with all the volume and quality workouts that Elite runners do.

I dont see any good to push to the limit even the easy pace days ( Kipchoge 30k and 40k of course are quality workout)

Moderate pace : 10k pace /km + 60"

Easy pace : 10kpace/km +90"

These two speeds to me always work for everybody when it comes to basic aerobic speed

I'm defining easy as 6:30 and slower, and hard as 5:45 and faster for elite and sub-elites. Granted Rupp's easy might be 5:20 while Ryan Vail's might be 5:45 for the same effort.

The question is not really about Rupp. It's about the complete lack of depth in US marathon runners. Other than Rupp, we suck. Back in the 70's/80's 2:12 was probably considered the minimal result to be considered elite. Malmo ran 2:12 something. He was not considered great (at the marathon). His 1/2 marathon time was great , but if you were asking opinions about his marathoning back then the consensus would have been that he was just not a marathoner. He was "ok", but better as shorter road races.

Today, he'd be one of our best. A possible Olympic team candidate. Yet today's runner would kill him on the track (well, he'd be decent in the steeple today on his best days).

Chris Derrick has run 13:08/27:30 (and probably could improve on that 10k time), but he's slower than Malmo in the marathon. He's slower than Kirk Pfeffer - a 28:20 10k guy. He's slower than Tony Sandoval a 27:47 guy. He's slower than Ed Mendoza. He's slower than Ron Tab, Benji Durden, Mark Conover.

The list goes on. There's probably 25-50 runners from that era with faster PR's than Derrick.

Heck, he barely beats Tim Varley - a guy who never broke 29:00 in a 10k.

I don't know how Chris Derrick trains. I don't know why he's not at least a 2:10 guy. He should be. But I'd wager than all those guys listed above ran their average easy runs faster than most elites run their easy runs today. That's may have nothing to do with it, but there's got to be some reason why no one (other than Rupp and Meb) can run a decent marathon today. The women are good, but the men suck.

malmo wrote:

excuse me wrote:

I believe he is lying about averaging 5:20-5:30 mile paces.

I'm 100 percent sure you dont have a clue what you're talking about.

5:20 to 5:30 pace should be very easy for Rupp.

Of course this guy doesn't have a clue and of course running 30-second per mile slower than marathon-pace will feel easy but, malmo, you've been closer to Rupp's level of fitness than most (likely any) of us here, what's your opinion on the original question? One hears stories about old school marathon guys like Steve Jones who never ran slowly but it seems that training wisdom has turned away from that approach. Do you think that a relatively aggressive easy pace of MP + 30sec versus, say, MP + 60 sec is a critical part of Rupp's success or not?

acawe wrote:

guys--come on. it's not easy pace. Its not even hard work or natural talent....

Yea because I would totally believe that if drugs were all it took to run 2:06, that the US would still only have one guy doing it. Literally saying that only 1 in 175,000,000 guys would be willing to risk doping to be an Olympian.

Have you considered that the reason he has had a single coach with a long term approach and access to every Nike tool imaginable is because he was recognized (at a really early age) to have massive talent and potential?

Read about Lionel Messi.

Same thing.

These guys are recognized to have elite potential and groomed to be international-class.

It's not like anyone could train injury-free for 15 years and have Nike gear and technology and win Olympic medals like Rupp has. Derrick and his teammates have the same access to the same facilities as NOP.

PLUS, there are plenty of amazing runners who don't have the mental ability and discipline to train so hard and be so focused without cracking or slipping up and not maintaining. There's a massive psychological talent component required as well, to train hard and not be terrified at the starting line.

This is why lots of people don't make it olympics or run well at big meets : Pressure.

Rupp has all the pieces: Talent, Durability, Focus, Coolness at the starting line and during the race (tactics).

Get it?!

If Rupp's marathon pace is 4:50, then 5:20 is 90% of that. For a guy who has 6 minute pace, it would mean his "easy" pace is 6:40.

I have no doubt that for Rupp to go run 5k in 16:30 would be a total joke for him, but if it's 90% marathon pace, it surely isn't "easy" as in what you'd do for recovery or warm up / cool down.

No.

He is simply the most talented distance runner in the US.

Why don't you try all running your easy miles at 5:20-5:30 pace? You can't because it's too difficult. And that's what the other US marathoners would say also.

You just proved my point. I said 99%, and that's give or take. Yes, there are some outliers, hence me writing 99%.