3000m race at the Olympics - Who would have won?

Hugo the Hugandan wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Rotich's team coach was sent home for presenting a urine sample as his athlete's, so not exactly a whopping great lie is it, even if neither he nor Rotich was subsequently nailed.

Liar.

You, Coevett are a liar.

http://www.coastweek.com/3933-IOC-absolves-coach-John-Anzrah-of-wrongdoing-in-doping-fiasco.htm

It's a "whopping great lie" from you, the whopping great anti-Kenyan liar.

Care to refute that?

Thought so.

He (the coach) was sent home in disgrace for presenting his urine as Rotich's, even if both he and Rotich got off with it.

That statement is factually correct.

Totes pawned.

Coevett wrote:

Off the top of my head I can't think of another all-time great who burnt out in his mid-twenties.

Morceli turned 27 in 1997.

After 1986 Cram never was close to his 85 and 86 form.

Coevett wrote:

Hugo the Hugandan wrote:

Liar.

You, Coevett are a liar.

http://www.coastweek.com/3933-IOC-absolves-coach-John-Anzrah-of-wrongdoing-in-doping-fiasco.htm

It's a "whopping great lie" from you, the whopping great anti-Kenyan liar.

Care to refute that?

Thought so.

He (the coach) was sent home in disgrace for presenting his urine as Rotich's, even if both he and Rotich got off with it.

That statement is factually correct.

Totes pawned.

C'mon Coevett....it's no wonder you're getting a bad reputation! You need to be honest with the facts and refrain from displaying so much prejudice against the Kenyans.

Anzrah used Rotich's credentials to get in the Olympic village cafe and score on one of those high-caliber breakfasts. It's was stupid and completely poor judgement on Anzrah - it cost him being expelled from the Olympics. When they caught Anzrah and escorted him to anti-doping for the random drug test that was scheduled for Rotich, they realized he wasn't Rotich. I mean...c'mon man: A *61* yr worn-down old guy isn't going to look anything like 27 yr old Rotich, whose photo would be on the credentials that Anzrah was carrying. Lol. Please...anti-doping isn't that stupid.

Following the detention of Anzrah they quickly located Rotich and tested him. So, if Rotich was supposedly glowing and Anzrah try to pose as him to give a sample - a lot of good that would have done. ?

Bottom line: Rotich passed his drug control and so it's evidence that Anzrah used Rotich's credentials to get the free breakfast and not pull a fast one on drug testers. The updated report on the investigation from the above link clearly states: "no preliminary evidence to suggest to any attempt to compromise the drug test...."

crammy wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Off the top of my head I can't think of another all-time great who burnt out in his mid-twenties.

Morceli turned 27 in 1997.

After 1986 Cram never was close to his 85 and 86 form.

David Wottle another one to add to the list. Bad knees, if I remember right, ended his career early. As far as Morceli goes, if you watch some of his last races, he was aerobically just as fit as before, but lost his kick later on. Here is him in the Zurich 1500m in 97, with the lead pack till the last 100m. I think he realized that he couldn't kick like he use too and just retired as opposed to moving up in distance. I am sure he could've moved up to the marathon and won a Olympic medal in that. I read he used to do 13 mile tempo runs at a 5 minute pace.

95 Zurich mile: Morceli vs Hicham

97 Zurich 1500m: Morceli vs Hicham

He couldn't kick because he lost some aerobic strength

golf hat wottle wrote:

crammy wrote:

After 1986 Cram never was close to his 85 and 86 form.

David Wottle another one to add to the list. Bad knees, if I remember right, ended his career early. As far as Morceli goes, if you watch some of his last races, he was aerobically just as fit as before, but lost his kick later on. Here is him in the Zurich 1500m in 97, with the lead pack till the last 100m. I think he realized that he couldn't kick like he use too and just retired as opposed to moving up in distance. I am sure he could've moved up to the marathon and won a Olympic medal in that. I read he used to do 13 mile tempo runs at a 5 minute pace.

95 Zurich mile: Morceli vs Hicham

97 Zurich 1500m: Morceli vs Hicham

Cram I think was still ranked number 1 in 87 and 88. In 88 he beat everybody (except Aouita who didn't run) in the Dream Mile and was running 1:43 in the 800m again. He looked to be timing his form perfectly for Seoul. Then he attempted to break Coe's 1000m WR the week before the Games and blew out his calves again. After that I don't he could even train for more than a week or two without breaking down. Despite this, he did show glimpses of his old abilities, such as leading the 1500m European Final in 90 until running out of gas after only being able to run 20 miles a week training for it, and the 93 Dream Mile where he beat Cacho and others in coming 3rd behind Morcelli.

Wottle again had clear injury problems and also decided to race professionally.

Morcelli overnight 'losing his ability to kick' at the end of 3:28 EPO paced races at the age of 26 doesn't compare to Cram or Wottle's decline.

I wonder if Rotich and his coach would still have got away with it if they knew at the time that his training partner was an EPO doper?

Coevett wrote:

He (the coach) was sent home in disgrace for presenting his urine as Rotich's, even if both he and Rotich got off with it.

That statement is factually correct.

Totes pawned.

It is not factually correct.

So they didn't get away with anything.

Off the top of my head I can't think of another all-time great who burnt out in his mid-twenties.

Morceli turned 27 in 1997.

[/quote]

Juantorena and Van Damme.

Nothing out of the ordinary except for Steve Cram. The man peaked quite young. His only Olympic medal at 23, and his last world record at 24. Gebrselassie is truly amazing on this list.

Seb Coe (ENG) peaked at 27, set his last world record at 25

Hicham El Guerrouj (MOR) peaked at 26, set his last world record at 25

Norredine Morceli (ALG) peaked at 26, set his last world record at 24

Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) peaked at 27, set his last world record at 35

Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) peaked at 25, set his last world record at 24

Steve Ovett (ENG) peaked at 24, set his last world record at 27

Steve Cram (ENG) peaked at 23, set his last world record at 24

David Rudisha (KEN) peaked at 27, set his last world record at 27

Coe peaked at 27?

Yes, Coe peaked at 27.

He was born in 1956.

His last Olympic Medal was in 1984 (27yrs old).

His last World Record was the summer of 1981 (24yrs old).

He then proceeded to start losing quite a bit after 1984. He could not replicate his 1500m form after Los Angeles, losing the European Championship 1500m in 1986 and losing again in the World Cup in Rome in 1989.

If you read his biography, he feels he was done in 1984, that he had expended so much physical and mental energies and the results prove it.

He peaked at 24.

No, I believe there is a physical peak and then a mental peak. Coe was able to use his fitness from '81 to win in '84. He mastered both the mind and body. That is part of the peak. I do think, however, he showed mental and tactical weakness never being able to win Olympic Gold over 800m, which was always first before the 1500m.

Coevett wrote:

Rotich's team coach was sent home for presenting a urine sample as his athlete's, so not exactly a whopping great lie is it,

He did not present a urine sample as his athlete’s. You are incapable of telling the truth.

neverthesame wrote:

Off the top of my head I can't think of another all-time great who burnt out in his mid-twenties.

Morceli turned 27 in 1997.

Juantorena and Van Damme.[/quote]

Well Van Damme died in a car crash months after winning two silvers at the Montreal Olympics at age 22, Juantorena had to have a foot operation I think at the end of 77 and was never the same again.

lwll wrote:

Yes, Coe peaked at 27.

He was born in 1956.

His last Olympic Medal was in 1984 (27yrs old).

His last World Record was the summer of 1981 (24yrs old).

He then proceeded to start losing quite a bit after 1984. He could not replicate his 1500m form after Los Angeles, losing the European Championship 1500m in 1986 and losing again in the World Cup in Rome in 1989.

If you read his biography, he feels he was done in 1984, that he had expended so much physical and mental energies and the results prove it.

You aren't well-read are you!?

He never said in any book that he was 'done in ' after 1984. The efforts to get back to peak form in a few months in 84 meant he was always going to take it easy in 85, but he never said he was finished, as you imply.

The World Cup in 89 was in Barcelona not Rome; and yes he was past his best then yet still managed to win silver after being impeded at the beginning of the home straight by Bile.

He was World ranked #1 over 800m in 86 (at 29) and ran his fastest ever 1500m the same year. He lost the 1500m by running about as tactically astute a race as he'd run over 800m in Moscow! In other words, running the bends in lanes 2 and 3 and covering an extra c.25m in the process.

Coe's best year was 81, although despite illness and injury he did manage to reach something of a return to peak form at the end of 84 and end of 86. Thereafter he wasn't the same, although still had the occasional great performance.

2000/04 - El G or Mourhit.

lwll wrote:

Yes, Coe peaked at 27.

He was born in 1956.

His last Olympic Medal was in 1984 (27yrs old).

His last World Record was the summer of 1981 (24yrs old).

He then proceeded to start losing quite a bit after 1984. He could not replicate his 1500m form after Los Angeles, losing the European Championship 1500m in 1986 and losing again in the World Cup in Rome in 1989.

If you read his biography, he feels he was done in 1984, that he had expended so much physical and mental energies and the results prove it.

Are you seriously comparing Coe's 'burn out' to Morcelli's?

Morcelli ran his Mile pb at 23 and did not run within 6 seconds of it again after age 26.

Morcelli ran his 1500m pb at 25 and ran within 3 seconds of it (by 1/10th of a second) only once again after the age of 26.

Coe ran his Mile pb at 24 (and 11 months) and ran within two seconds of it aged 28 (not sure if he even ran another Mile in the rest of his career).

Coe ran his 1500m pb at 29 (and 11 months).

Coe ran his 800m pb at 24 and ran within 1.6 seconds of it (and his 4th fastest) at age 32 (and 11 months).

Coe also had well documented ill health that everybody here knows about. His form in 84 and then again in 86 at the age of 30 suggests that had his career not been interrupted with health problems in 82 and 83 he probably would have peaked in those years (i.e. at 25/26 which is entirely normal).

All the athletes listed had documented injury problems. I'm just curious as to what happened to Morcelli. Surely such a sharp decline couldn't have been down simply to 'lack of motivation' after winning Gold?