What changes should be made to NXN and NXR to make it even better

There are many teams with many different advantages. There is a specific rule at Nike that allows the use of 7th and 8th grade athletes for only some of the competing teams. It isn't much of a factor on the boys side, it is clearly a major factor on the outcome of the race on the girls side. One only needs to look at this season's NXN results to see that. I understand why many are passionate about playing this off and acting like it isn't an issue. It is a major results changer for those teams and taking it away from them would majorly hurt some of these program and state results. I can understand how that would be very frustrating, just like it is frustrating for those of us that don't have access because the Nike rules forbid us to use middle schoolers. It isn't an association issue, it is a Nike Cross Nationals rule issue. They simply state NXN is a 9-12 only event and it is fixed.

Ironically, many have stated that I'm trying to turn the event into California. That isn't true. If anything I'm trying to bring it to the level of Footlocker. 9-12. High School Championship. Everyone plays by the same rules. Seems pretty simple. Feel free to call me all the names you need to if it makes you feel better.

Doug

Coach Soles wrote:

Feel free to call me all the names you need to if it makes you feel better.

Doug

You really are a tunnel-visioned idiot.

Wow, I feel better already.

This is the rule. It applies to every team equally: IN ORDER COMPETE IN NIKE CROSS NATIONALS OR NIKE CROSS REGIONALS YOU MUST BE IN GOOD STANDING WITH THE NCAA, ON TRACK TO GRADUATE PER YOUR HIGH SCHOOL’S GUIDELINES AND HAVE NOT BEEN DISMISSED FROM YOUR CLUB FOR DISCIPLINARY REASONS. ADDITIONALLY, YOU MUST BE AT A GRADE LEVEL THAT ALLOWS YOU TO PARTICIPATE IN HIGH SCHOOL CROSS COUNTRY BASED ON YOUR INDIVIDUAL STATE ASSOCIATION RULES AND GUIDELINES Continually stating that it is not an association issue is misleading. Honestly you just sound like a football player who got scored on and complains because the other team is celebrating.

Coach Soles wrote:

There is a specific rule at Nike that allows the use of 7th and 8th grade athletes for only some of the competing teams.

just like it is frustrating for those of us that don't have access because the Nike rules forbid us to use middle schoolers. It isn't an association issue, it is a Nike Cross Nationals rule issue.

Everyone plays by the same rules.

Doug

First let me definitively assert that I am an avid NY XC fan, and yes, appropriately biased.

Second, I will say that if Nike changes the rules so that the competition is for 9-12 graders--no exceptions, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Most girls who are stars as middle schoolers rarely improve, and many burn out into oblivion. As long as Nike makes that rule set in stone, I would indifferently accept that new norm.

Therefore, my beef is not with your position, Coach Soles, but with your reasoning behind it. You lead a perennial national powerhouse, with both genders consistently being the deepest, if not necessarily the best, teams in the country. The fact that you think access to your middle schoolers would elevate your teams to a higher level is laughable, because you consistently have 10+ runners behind your seventh who could step in and perform for you on a national level.

I agree with you. I just find needing to use 4 middle schoolers to make it to NXN laughable. Many hold the same view that I do, but obviously not a lot of them are willing to share it because of the blowback. This thread posed the question what makes NXN better. I have stated my case and believe it to be correct. The obvious answer for me is to go in the future or not, something I have been discussing. I no longer take my teams to NBNO because of the same rules issue. I believe 9-12 makes NXN a better event for all teams and I believe the historical results show that. That is my position, and it won't change.

This will be my last post on this thread.

Doug

Can't compete, so he is going to take his ball and go home. Way to go coach, rob your athletes of a great competition opportunity to save your ego.

Coach Soles wrote:

The obvious answer for me is to go in the future or not, something I have been discussing. I no longer take my teams to NBNO because of the same rules issue.

This will be my last post on this thread.

Doug

I have yet to hear 1 person say why Middle School kids SHOULD be allowed to compete with HS kids other than "well they allow it in my state.."

If the only argument is that the school is small so they have to use middle schoolers to fill out a squad, then I'd just say that this event isn't for you. Come back when you have 7 kids that are actually in HS.

Coach Soles wrote:

I agree with you. I just find needing to use 4 middle schoolers to make it to NXN laughable. Many hold the same view that I do, but obviously not a lot of them are willing to share it because of the blowback. This thread posed the question what makes NXN better. I have stated my case and believe it to be correct. The obvious answer for me is to go in the future or not, something I have been discussing. I no longer take my teams to NBNO because of the same rules issue. I believe 9-12 makes NXN a better event for all teams and I believe the historical results show that. That is my position, and it won't change.

This will be my last post on this thread.

Doug

and this is why quality posters stop posting here; if you have a disagreement with his stance that is one thing but way too many people just go into attack mode. let's respect the fact that a national caliber coach is willing to post here with his name attached to his opinions and have a civil discussion.

as I said earlier he has several good points that are valid. I don't blame Nike for the way they do things because they are trying to keep everyone happy but I am genuinely curious why New York does allow middle schoolers to compete as high school athletes. it just doesn't seem to make sense from a developmental perspective. I have no dog in this fight I just don't know if I have heard a New York person actually explain why this is a rule as opposed to just repeating that this is what they do and arguing about why its okay to have them run at Nike cause they can run at states.

" I believe 9-12 makes NXN a better event for all teams and I believe the historical results show that."

I fully respect that this is your position on how to make NXN a better event. However your position clearly doesn't make it better for ALL teams. Those that use/need middle school runners are worse off without being able to use them. So the "historical results" don't show better for all, rather different for all teams (and worse for those who need the younger runners).

I actually love the NXN event and NXR events. I have been to both and absolutely love the passion and enthusiasm for the sport. I see kids smiling. I see kids trying their best. I see sportsmanship. I see all the agony and ecstasy of winning and losing. I think it is a great way to cap off the XC season. These are the reasons it is a great event no matter who wins and who doesn't.

My position, and it won't change, is that there are too many coaches who worry first and foremost of who wins rather than all the other experiences and opportunities that are valuable and treasured by the athletes. Any proposals that are primarily focused on winning rather than the other stuff is a bad proposal in my opinion.

All proposals should be how to make the sport better and how Nike can do this. The excitement, enthusiasm and everything else that I see at NXN and NXR is the most important part of the sport and they do this well.

Why middle school runners to compete as HS athletes is a great question.

I wish those who have decided it is not good to have MS runners compete at NXN would have looked at it from the perspective of is this healthy, etc and not because it changes team results with them in the race.

The purpose in setting up NXN was to have a national HS XC team championship. So, you can either have a championship between teams as you have had them all season long, or you can have them as totally different teams. But having different eligibility rules for HS teams than the ones they have competed under all year long undermines the entire purpose of having a having a national championship meet. All this whining smacks of just not being able to defeat those teams on the course, so trying to use other means to do it.

quickndirty wrote:

I have yet to hear 1 person say why Middle School kids SHOULD be allowed to compete with HS kids other than "well they allow it in my state.."

If the only argument is that the school is small so they have to use middle schoolers to fill out a squad, then I'd just say that this event isn't for you. Come back when you have 7 kids that are actually in HS.

quickndirty wrote:

I have yet to hear 1 person say why Middle School kids SHOULD be allowed to compete with HS kids other than "well they allow it in my state.."

Because if they are good enough to compete at that level, they shouldn't be denied the opportunity. Period.

Should the 7-foot-tall 8th-grader be forced to play "modified" basketball, just because Coach Soles would be butt-hurt otherwise? Gee, whose "development" is hurt more by this... the prodigy, or the poor 5'8" guys getting dunked on by the thyroidal monster? That's a tough call. If the kid looks like Shawn Bradley, then maybe you keep him away from the HS kids. If he looks like Shaquille O'Neal, no way in hell you want him playing with 7th and 8th graders. But... you can't have different rules for different kids.

Yes. This is exactly why having different state and NXN rules would not work. It would hurt the team atmosphere when the varsity team changes all the time.

And competing up at a higher level and getting to practice with older runners, speaking anectdotally, creates a strong environment for growth and mentoring when middle schoolers and high schoolers are all together. I think taking this away from the states which already allow it would be very difficult to do since it would only hurt the athletes involved and not help anyone. With that in mind, I agree that leveling the playing field is always a good idea. If taking away middle schoolers at only the national level is not feasible, nor is taking away them at the state level, the only way for you to get what you say you seek would be to allow everyone to have middle-schoolers compete up.

But I remind you that this is you complaining it is unfair because you are losing. It is not about what is best for the HS athletes, and I think you are setting a bad example for HS athletes by your coaching attitude. I know that’s harsh, but that’s my honest opinion. I do have respect for your success, though.

Coach Soles,

How about we make it a 9-12 race only, but we also make a race with no transfers? Any transfers, as in some states, are ineligible for their team for 1 year. Seems fair, doesn't it? Let's level the playing field.

Why do you continue to ignore this inequality of NXN?

Coach Soles wrote:

I believe 9-12 makes NXN a better event for all teams and I believe the historical results show that. That is my position, and it won't change.

This will be my last post on this thread.

Doug

Since NXN has never been "9-12", pray tell... which historical results are you referring to here, exactly?

No need to violate your "last post" edict. You've embarrassed yourself enough already.

quickndirty wrote:

I have yet to hear 1 person say why Middle School kids SHOULD be allowed to compete with HS kids other than "well they allow it in my state.."

If the only argument is that the school is small so they have to use middle schoolers to fill out a squad, then I'd just say that this event isn't for you. Come back when you have 7 kids that are actually in HS.

Junior high kids have been allowed to compete at Varsity level in New York State since the late 1970's ... So there's a fair amount experience and data available to judge whether it is good or bad for the kids and what is actually allowed by the State.

Nationwide, there are currently 12 States allowing middle schoolers to compete at the Varsity level, several allowing very restricted competition at the Varsity level and several States in the process of considering middle schoolers to compete at the Varsity level (this is based on what I've researched in the past and some recent contacts from other people) ... Overall, that's about 1/3 of the US.

About 8 years ago, the NY State Education Department conducted a 3 year study of junior high athletes competing at the Varsity level ... rumor had it that some people in the NY government wanted to stop it (I don't if it's true or not, but it was studied) ... Bottom line of the study was - It was better for the small percentage of kids capable of competing at the Varsity level to actually have them compete at the Varsity level than remain at the junior high level.

Accordingly, the NY State Education Department set up rules and guidelines for allowing junior high kids to compete at the Varsity level ... The Athletic Placement Process (APP) was put into place ... Kids must pass physical tests, medical tests, and be confirmed by a medical doctor, Athletic Director and parents.

One quote from the 2015 Athletic Placement Process :

"The APP is not to be used to fill positions on teams, provide additional experience, provide an opportunity for middle school or junior high students when no modified program is offered, or to reward a student. Instead, it is aimed at the few, select students who can benefit from such placement because of their level of readiness. "

In NY State, less than 5% of junior high athletes have been classified up to the Varsity level ... meaning >95% of all junior kids in NY are ineligible to compete at Varsity level.

eastandwest wrote:

Get NXN back to its roots....teams only. Let the best individuals not on a great team run FL. Then two years later, combine the races into one somehow.

No reason that individuals should be racing two national championships. If there's more than one, it's not really nationals. Either have a team only event (Nike) and an individual only event (FL) or combine them. I personal like the first option, but in the current system, an individual isn't a true national champion unless they win both. And four post-state races is too much for any teenager.

There have been a few posts about Easton Allred being allowed to compete at nationals against NXN rules. Nothing has changed. Because Allred was allowed to compete on the junior varsity level this year, he was considered a high school athlete. Nike has repeatedly allowed this before. If Allred were not allowed to run at any level on his HS team this year, then Nike would not have allowed him to compete at NXN.

Is NY the only place that allows that?

I was one of those kids. I could have been the 6th man on my HS varsity team when I was in the 8th grade, but because I was not in HS I had to run JV (we did not have middle school track or xc.)

Personally I think the athlete would be fine. However, I think a HS contest should only be contested by kids that are actually in HS. It's a pretty darned easy standard, either you attend HS or you don't.