Training Discussion Thread - outsiderunner

OR I think it would be helpful once you have the free time if you could describe how the race unfolded because that goes directly to the race execution aspect that Stone wanted you to focus on.

No problem at all, too hot. Will post race details when I am done with work (and then church), later this evening. Pappy--I appreciate the input...yes, everything has an impact on performance.

Also, when I said I was disappointed, I did not intend it to mean that I was disappointed in Stone and/or his system. I am just disappointed...and perhaps with the rep work he has give me, and the fact that I ran only 44 miles prior to the race (in five days), it made my expectations fairly high. Likewise, Stone (and others) have said that on a fair course, I should run 17-flat, and I tend to think that is an accurate assessment.

Also, I am disappointed that my lower right shin is sore (probably from the hills?). I hardly ever get sore there.

Might be the hills, might also be working to stabilize on slick roads (or both).

From what you said, it sounds like you finished pretty much the same relative to the guy who won as you did the last time you raced him. To me that suggests that the time can be chalked up to course and conditions. So, don't sweat it too much.

OR - Really, time was of no concern with this race. You could have run 19:02 and still had a successful race. Like too hot and Pappy, I am more interested in the details than the outcome. That way we can make racing adjustments for the future.

How did the race unfold? Why couldn’t you tuck behind the winner for the opening phase of the race if he finished just :12 ahead of you? Were the conditions just not suitable for you? Legs tired?

The details, not the time outcome, are what matter. There will be races upcoming where you will have a time goal. It is important to keep tactical goals also, to improve one’s ability to race.

At the very least, you got in 3.1 miles of hard running about :25-30/mi faster than goal marathon pace. So at the very least, you did get in good running today, even though the time itself was not the end.

I was also not under the impression that the goal of this race was to get a good time or win

-RS

The Stone Cutter wrote:

In the spirit of the Road Racing and Training Thread, this thread is designed to discuss training principles and methodologies. One of the regular posters on that thread, outsiderunner, is approaching 50 years old and has some nice PRs (17:30ish 5k, 2:46ish marathon). He has accomplished those times off his own, unorthodox style of training — running a progression run everyday averaging usually 6:20-6:40/mi, and usually closing in the low to sub 6:00/mi range for the last couple of miles of each run.

He has asked for feedback about improving his times further, and I will be offering some suggestions in the days to come.

Sorry! But running progressively every day will never function the very best way . You can`t pass over the basic law

of training, enough effort- enough recovery= supercompensation.If he really wants to improve his best choice is to alternate

easy days with quality days.

- Magic Year To Come -

Just got home from work. I am cranky and starving, and so I will do my best to keep things civil.

My right shin is hurting pretty badly. This is why I have avoided the Winter Series for the last two years. The hills tend to be short, steep, and dangerous. In my daily running around here, I purposely avoid hillls like this. I know my body and I “pick my spots,” so to speak. In the WS, at best, you will not even come close to getting a PR, and at worst you will find yourself injured.

The race unfolded as all races around here unfold. A bunch of people and kids up front who have no business being there, or any chance of winning, getting in the way. How to deal with these people is always a dilemma. Their moves are hard to predict. Stay back, and then you are too far back and lose contact with the lead group. Go out in a sprint and then you risk getting tired too ealy or having one of these people crash into you while you are running at a high speed. In short, no good options. I usually choose to sit back, let then cut me off, and then try to catch the lead group. That is what I did today. There simply was no one suitable to run behind. If I had stayed back, it would have been just too slow and the lead group would have been off and gone. So, I worked my way through them, and got closer to the lead group, but was in between, in no man’s land, for the first mile, which included a steep uphill that felt much harder than the 5:53 it registered on my watch.

So, I was in chase mode, hoping to get behind someone, but knowing in the back of my mind that things were going to be a challenge. These hills make you tired and play with your mind. I caught the 3rd place guy on a hill at about 1.5, and briefly thought of throwing down the “game plan” but was already starting to hurt. I put the plan in the back of my mind, and waited to see if I would feel better now that I was not climbing...but deep down I knew there were would be no high-flying surges today. The course and spacing of competitors were working against me.

I picked up the second place guy at about the two-mile mark. I saw the 5:39 flash on my watch and was somewhat encouraged, as 5:39 is a pretty darn good split for the hills around here (but of course pretty slow to guys on letsrun). That encouraged feeling was very short-lived, and by next roller at about 2.3 I was already thinking “When is this going to be over?” I knew that awful downhill, the worst of the race was coming, and that the guy behind me would then surely gain on me, and he did. I was simply hanging on in that downhill (at about 2.6) as it was wet and way too steep for a race. I have run it before, and am glad I have never slipped. He gained on me some, and then in pure anger, I picked up the pace on the slight incline ahead, made the right turn toward the final hill (at about 2.8 or so), and said to myself something like, “Will not let him catch me!” Surprisingly, when I got ot the top of that hill and was almost done, I actually felt pretty good, the best I had felt in the entire race. I saw the finish, and put on a little kick. The last mile registered 5:44 on my watch, and felt about twice as hard as that. The race was a bit long, at 3.15, and I know how they got it wrong.

This was a VERY GQOD venting exercise, and I am glad I have written this. My main concern right now is my right shin and whether or not I can run tomorrow. Thank you for tolertaing my frustration/disappointment.

Be well...

A couple points, as I know it’s been a long day and an action packed last couple of weeks.

1. Rest tomorrow if need be. Please. I would rather give your shin the rest that it needs and pick up the pieces Monday or whenever it feels better. No need to push the envelope now when Boston is still almost 4 months away. You have gotten in five great quality days the past two weeks. That’s a big win.

2. Things to take away from this race.

A. I am still not sure why you couldn’t go with the leader from the gun. If you split a 5:53 and he ended up winning by :12 seconds, there is no harm in going out hard and staying in the mix. Knowing that you are running WITH the leader is a major psychological advantage on a tough course versus running alone. Being the “chaser” on his shoulder also puts pressure on the leader, especially if he can’t shake you. You can’t go back in time but this is something to keep in mind for the next race in this series, since you have been on the podium for all three thus far. You do belong up there from the beginning. Compete. Get outside your comfort zone.

B. When you got to 1.5 miles and thought about making the move...why didn’t you? I know you were hurting, perhaps as much mentally as physically, but why not gun it to two miles and see how you felt when you got there? Instead of THINKING how you might feel when you got there. My suspicion is if you made a decisive move to the two mile mark, you might have closed close enough to the leader that psychologically you may have gotten back into the race. This is 20/20 hindsight. But these are good lessons to take away from a race, so that you can apply them at a future race.

As I said before, take away the positives from today. Tough course, solid running, great preparatory work for Boston. And then take away the lessons. All races teach us something. Apply those lessons to future training and races.

I cannot argue with you Stone. You are right that I could have gone with the leader, Juan, from the get-go. In my defense, the “you got no business being here” people did get in the way for the first half mile or so. I should have just put on a surge to get with Juan and the other two guys. I guess I have always had an aversion to aggressive moves. Now, Juan is a good twenty years younger than I and a very good runner, but I think I am at least as fit as he is, and yet he has beaten me by :09 and :12 in the last two races in which we have competed recently. You are right. I can run with him. And should have. Let’s hope the shin feels better.

Like most runners, I try to analyze a race, take away the lessons, and move on. As much as we may want to, we can’t change this past race. We can change the next one.

And we can prevent the shin from getting worse. Let’s get the shin right and start back with easy running once the soreness subsides (whether that is tomorrow or Monday or three days from now). When the symptoms are completely gone, we’ll start back with the quality.

I need to watch Rudy. Glad it just started...

I will say though that the race plan was a bit unclear. Stone, did you want OR to race for the win (go out with Juan) or be shot out of a canon at mile 1.5 because those are potentially two different things. To be shot out of a canon halfway requires that you start out out conservatively but sometimes going for the win, as in this case, will stretch you beyond your means or at least force you to take a few more risks early on.

I see your point. All I can say is that those miles felt HARD. I ran 17:45 in July, also on a hilly course, and in hot/humid conditions. I hope I am not going backwards. Lots of stuff like this running through my mind now...

Easy fix. Just have to learn to go to the dark side and really suffer in a 5k. I believe the way I ran 5ks in 2017 and really going out way to hard ( in one I split 69-2:40-5:30-11:02 en route to 17:31) and just suffering thru a world of pain the last mile of every one.... Helped me learn to race a 5k In fall 2018 .. when I ran some good 5ks in HM training.

too hot 3 wrote:

I will say though that the race plan was a bit unclear. Stone, did you want OR to race for the win (go out with Juan) or be shot out of a canon at mile 1.5 because those are potentially two different things. To be shot out of a canon halfway requires that you start out out conservatively but sometimes going for the win, as in this case, will stretch you beyond your means or at least force you to take a few more risks early on.

Read it again and this time pay attention.

^that was unneeded.

RRR makes a good point about the 5k, it is a painful race. You jump on the pain train and stay on until the end. OS is training for a marathon, so I won't judge racing technique for shorter races.

We can't really say what a good race strategy would have been without knowing how fast the leader started. Was the point to get a really good "warmup" in for 6-9 minutes, then show OS taht he could run 500-520 pace?

I "coach" a 14 year old girl, and we ran a 2 mile time trial 12/24. I thought she was in 1200 shape, but she ended up running 1244,(607/637). Racing was a bad idea; it really hurt her confidence. I hope this doesn't do the same to OS.

Focus on the positive.

Bdubs wrote:

^that was unneeded.

RRR makes a good point about the 5k, it is a painful race. You jump on the pain train and stay on until the end. OS is training for a marathon, so I won't judge racing technique for shorter races.

We can't really say what a good race strategy would have been without knowing how fast the leader started. Was the point to get a really good "warmup" in for 6-9 minutes, then show OS taht he could run 500-520 pace?

I "coach" a 14 year old girl, and we ran a 2 mile time trial 12/24. I thought she was in 1200 shape, but she ended up running 1244,(607/637). Racing was a bad idea; it really hurt her confidence. I hope this doesn't do the same to OS.

Focus on the positive.

Bdubs - very good post. I agree, the one comment was unneeded.

It seems most people missed the point of this race exercise, or perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I should have been. Perhaps I should have laid out different parameters.

OR - There was no time goal to shoot for. You keep bringing up the time you ran, and you are comparing it to a time you ran last summer. Time was not the goal here. Maybe in your mind you thought it was, which is why you are disappointed, or maybe you were caught between your own pre-race expectations and the plan I proposed and you found yourself frozen, arrested, with no real plan or goal.

I wanted you to race. To not even concern yourself with the time. Because right now isn’t the proper moment to chase a time. You are accustomed to longer races. You are accustomed to progression runs. You are accustomed to checking your watch and feeling a certain satisfaction of “beating” some arbitrary target you have set for yourself, whether it is outperforming the previous mile, breaking 6:00/mi, setting a new record on your watch, etc.

I want you to move away from your watch for a moment. To not focus on time. I want you to focus on racing. Competing against other runners.

The point of the race was this - if there was a runner (like Juan) who you were able to go out with, even if it stretched you outside your comfort zone, then go with him. Hang right on his shoulder and let him pull you along. I want you to discover as a racer what that tactic psychologically feels like - running with/against somebody. Stalking.

If Juan went out too fast for you to hold onto (say he went out at 5:15), then what I wanted you to do was to run as relaxed yet as fast as possible to keep him in enough proximity, so that when you got about 7 to 10 minutes into the race you ran as hard as you could to two miles to try to catch him/pass him. And even if you didn’t catch him, I wanted you to see what happens to yourself psychologically by employing that tactic. Could you actually hold that hard effort by moving yourself out of the race comfort zone?

Like Bdubs, I understand that these short races are not your specialty. They are hard to get right without practicing. And really, that is all I am having you doing right now - practicing to be a better racer. Not a faster runner, a better racer.

The funny thing is, once you try and learn a few different tactics, get better at them, learn and grow, you WILL become a faster runner. Because you are a better racer. (For point of reference: Think of Mr. Miyagi teaching Daniel-san to paint the fence before he teaches him karate).

There is nothing to lose confidence in with this race. You put it in a solid run, which again is a great stimulus for a guy training for a marathon in about 4 months.

Take care of the shin. Move past the race and past the “time” aspect. I think the next race I should have you run watchless, or at least wear your watch but not be able to see the data until afterward (putting my watch on “upside down” on my wrist with the face on the opposite side of my wrist is something I occasionally do).

For the next race, we’ll simply try again. That’s the beauty of 5ks. We don’t have to wait months to do another one.

Keep up your great training. You have every reason to be confident. These 5ks are just stepping stones to Boston. And in the long run, to sub-2:40:00.

outsiderunner wrote:

I see your point. All I can say is that those miles felt HARD. I ran 17:45 in July, also on a hilly course, and in hot/humid conditions. I hope I am not going backwards. Lots of stuff like this running through my mind now...

I don't think you are or will go backwards. Funny you mention 17:45. Plugging in 18:02 for 3.15 miles into Daniels calculator gives 17:45 as a time equivalent. Does this mean you are in the same shape you were in during July? No, it just means you are around it. That's actually a good thing. I'd take hot and humid conditions over cold, wet and semi-slick any day.

As for Stone's training. I doubt your race seen any effects from the training yet. Give it another week or so. There always seems to be a 2-4 week lag in training and racing. Results will come and I'd bet they will be better than you expect. You'll find running at a quicker pace easier soon.

As for 5k's, they are one of the trickiest races to run right. You basically need to run on the edge of oxygen debt for part of it and run in oxygen debt the other part. It is tricky because who knows where that line is on any given day. I believe you can only run at max 8-12 minutes in oxygen debt depending on your tolerance to lactic. Cross the line into oxygen debt too early and you are going to slow down no matter what. Throwing in hills, wind and weather just add to the balancing act.