3-ish-marathoner-zak wrote: I presume this is because he kept getting more and more fit, so he kept getting faster and what was supposed to be his CV eventually turned out to be HMP.
iowakidscanrun wrote:
3-ish-marathoner-zak wrote:
I haven't seen anyone comment on the actual workouts Brogan did that are logged on Strava. Using Tinman's calculator, a 2:12 marathoner has CV pace that is 4:37-4:43. In his cycle, Brogan spent way more time at his half marathon pace(4:45-4:55) or ~105% of MP than he spent at this CV pace( 4:40-4:45). I presume this is because he kept getting more and more fit, so he kept getting faster and what was supposed to be his CV eventually turned out to be HMP. Any thoughts on this? Another thing from this training log, it looks like he ran every single long run at about 85% MP.
I think you are over analyzing this. I’ve followed Brogan since he won his first state title in HS and I know the coach that launched him. This is not the magic of Tinmans special training zones as much as it is moderation and some tweaks to shore up his training. I think Brogan is a guy that’s been grinding and overtraining but managed to stay healthy for about 8 continuous years. He is an intelligent talented guy who has managed to lay an incredible training base over these years and now we’re seeing the results. He said it himself in a great interview...he underperformed in college because he was habitually overtraining. That’s been fixed. End of story. No magical training intensity.
I’ve been eating up all the Tinman interviews and think he is fantastic. So I am coming to this out of curiosity and interest for my own training. That said, I realize people with a base of training and talent like that have little to do with what is right for me.
In any case, I do think I am on to something here with the breakdown of paces Brogan trained at. if you use Tinmans calculator for a 2:18 marathon, you get the CV pace that he ran. In one of his Strava runs he says what his CV pace is. Half to two thirds through his training block he rocks a half at that pace. It doesn’t seem like he adjusts CV from there out.
For me, 1/2 and CV pace are miles apart, but for elites, they get awfully scrunched together. I counted roughly 10 workouts run at his half marathon PR pace and 3-4 run at what a 2:12 person would say is Their CV.
CV pace, as with all of Tinman’s training paces, are based on what you can run today, factoring in fatigue, weather, surface, etc.
In a few of the interviews, Brogan mentions that he did all of his workouts a) on a treadmill b) after work and c) in trainers, the Peg 35. Adjusting for these factors gets the paces pretty spot on.
3-ish-marathoner-zak wrote:
I’ve been eating up all the Tinman interviews and think he is fantastic. So I am coming to this out of curiosity and interest for my own training. That said, I realize people with a base of training and talent like that have little to do with what is right for me.
In any case, I do think I am on to something here with the breakdown of paces Brogan trained at. if you use Tinmans calculator for a 2:18 marathon, you get the CV pace that he ran. In one of his Strava runs he says what his CV pace is. Half to two thirds through his training block he rocks a half at that pace. It doesn’t seem like he adjusts CV from there out.
For me, 1/2 and CV pace are miles apart, but for elites, they get awfully scrunched together. I counted roughly 10 workouts run at his half marathon PR pace and 3-4 run at what a 2:12 person would say is Their CV.
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
iowakidscanrun wrote:
3-ish-marathoner-zak wrote:
I haven't seen anyone comment on the actual workouts Brogan did that are logged on Strava. Using Tinman's calculator, a 2:12 marathoner has CV pace that is 4:37-4:43. In his cycle, Brogan spent way more time at his half marathon pace(4:45-4:55) or ~105% of MP than he spent at this CV pace( 4:40-4:45). I presume this is because he kept getting more and more fit, so he kept getting faster and what was supposed to be his CV eventually turned out to be HMP. Any thoughts on this? Another thing from this training log, it looks like he ran every single long run at about 85% MP.
I think you are over analyzing this. I’ve followed Brogan since he won his first state title in HS and I know the coach that launched him. This is not the magic of Tinmans special training zones as much as it is moderation and some tweaks to shore up his training. I think Brogan is a guy that’s been grinding and overtraining but managed to stay healthy for about 8 continuous years. He is an intelligent talented guy who has managed to lay an incredible training base over these years and now we’re seeing the results. He said it himself in a great interview...he underperformed in college because he was habitually overtraining. That’s been fixed. End of story. No magical training intensity.
This might be the best post I have ever seen on letsrun. Perfectly sums up the "magic" of Tinman training.
You mentioned he was overtraining and now that is fixed. How do you assume he fixed it? By dialing back right? By training at certain intensities that are beneficial but allow you to recover quickly from them is a good start.
Look, I know a lot of people bash Tinman for his enormous hubris and talk of CV pace like its the greatest thing ever. But the "magic" in his training is that he does exactly what you are talking about....dials you back and "keeps the ball rolling." Honestly, if Brogan was so intelligent with his training then why did he overtrain all these years? Tinman really mattered for this guy. He even said it himself. Regardless of how much you want to see Tinman fail or how much you want to see athletes be held more accountable for their own successes, there is something to be said of THIS coach-athlete relationship that clearly is working much better than his previous ones did.
Tinman matters to Brogan. Coaches matter. A good coach can make a bad runner better and a good runner great. So yes, Brogan did find magic in Tinman's training intensities and his program in particular. I sincerely hope he keeps believing in that instead of listening to guys like you. Clearly what he is doing is working.
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
iowakidscanrun wrote:
3-ish-marathoner-zak wrote:
I haven't seen anyone comment on the actual workouts Brogan did that are logged on Strava. Using Tinman's calculator, a 2:12 marathoner has CV pace that is 4:37-4:43. In his cycle, Brogan spent way more time at his half marathon pace(4:45-4:55) or ~105% of MP than he spent at this CV pace( 4:40-4:45). I presume this is because he kept getting more and more fit, so he kept getting faster and what was supposed to be his CV eventually turned out to be HMP. Any thoughts on this? Another thing from this training log, it looks like he ran every single long run at about 85% MP.
I think you are over analyzing this. I’ve followed Brogan since he won his first state title in HS and I know the coach that launched him. This is not the magic of Tinmans special training zones as much as it is moderation and some tweaks to shore up his training. I think Brogan is a guy that’s been grinding and overtraining but managed to stay healthy for about 8 continuous years. He is an intelligent talented guy who has managed to lay an incredible training base over these years and now we’re seeing the results. He said it himself in a great interview...he underperformed in college because he was habitually overtraining. That’s been fixed. End of story. No magical training intensity.
You mentioned he was overtraining and now that is fixed. How do you assume he fixed it? By dialing back right? By training at certain intensities that are beneficial but allow you to recover quickly from them is a good start.
Look, I know a lot of people bash Tinman for his enormous hubris and talk of CV pace like its the greatest thing ever. But the "magic" in his training is that he does exactly what you are talking about....dials you back and "keeps the ball rolling." Honestly, if Brogan was so intelligent with his training then why did he overtrain all these years? Tinman really mattered for this guy. He even said it himself. Regardless of how much you want to see Tinman fail or how much you want to see athletes be held more accountable for their own successes, there is something to be said of THIS coach-athlete relationship that clearly is working much better than his previous ones did.
Tinman matters to Brogan. Coaches matter. A good coach can make a bad runner better and a good runner great. So yes, Brogan did find magic in Tinman's training intensities and his program in particular. I sincerely hope he keeps believing in that instead of listening to guys like you. Clearly what he is doing is working.
Ben Barrows' take on tinman training (which he is adopting):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwJr9xgB9Yg
Terrible adoption of Tinman training. Shows that people shouldn't simply create their own training plan based on what they read on the internet, but rather pay the coach directly.
His mistakes:
1) Too long CV workouts. 1600m is not prescribed by Tinman, even to Drew Hunter.
2) Special day for hill reps. Hills reps are part of a workout, or at the end of an easy/recovery run but NEVER get the position of being the 2nd workout in a week.
3) No doubles. Tinman recommends to double early, even if it's just a 20-30 min morning jog on the day of a workout.
4) Not enough strides/mile-paced reps. They are crucial to Tinman's formula, and happen 5x a week.
Tinman Tempo is ONLY used in base-phase or transition phase. He is 5 weeks out of his peak race!! Quote Tinman: "6 weeks before a peak race, tempo running and threshold is not as effective anymore. We need to introduce race-pace intervals and some work closer to VO2MAX". He hasn't done any of that.
No race-simulation workouts (like 3x1600 at 5k +10s, 5k, 5k-10s) or pyramids (1600-1200-800-600-400 all a bit faster), and no combo CV workouts (like 3x1000 at CV, 4x800 at VO2MAX, 4x200 at Mile Race Pace).
His 5k test was minutes over his PR, because he was injured and took 2 months off. Any training will get him a better time.
---
tldr: IF a Youtuber, or any person wants to seriously train after a certain coaches "program", he SHOULD buy a few months of coaching/training plan from the coach directly. There is lots of misinformation on the internet, or lots of stuff that doesn't show the big picture.
Who?
Xoman wrote:
Terrible adoption of Tinman training. Shows that people shouldn't simply create their own training plan based on what they read on the internet, but rather pay the coach directly.
His mistakes:
1) Too long CV workouts. 1600m is not prescribed by Tinman, even to Drew Hunter.
2) Special day for hill reps. Hills reps are part of a workout, or at the end of an easy/recovery run but NEVER get the position of being the 2nd workout in a week.
3) No doubles. Tinman recommends to double early, even if it's just a 20-30 min morning jog on the day of a workout.
4) Not enough strides/mile-paced reps. They are crucial to Tinman's formula, and happen 5x a week.
Tinman Tempo is ONLY used in base-phase or transition phase. He is 5 weeks out of his peak race!! Quote Tinman: "6 weeks before a peak race, tempo running and threshold is not as effective anymore. We need to introduce race-pace intervals and some work closer to VO2MAX". He hasn't done any of that.
No race-simulation workouts (like 3x1600 at 5k +10s, 5k, 5k-10s) or pyramids (1600-1200-800-600-400 all a bit faster), and no combo CV workouts (like 3x1000 at CV, 4x800 at VO2MAX, 4x200 at Mile Race Pace).
His 5k test was minutes over his PR, because he was injured and took 2 months off. Any training will get him a better time.
---
tldr: IF a Youtuber, or any person wants to seriously train after a certain coaches "program", he SHOULD buy a few months of coaching/training plan from the coach directly. There is lots of misinformation on the internet, or lots of stuff that doesn't show the big picture.
This kid really has no idea what he's doing. I'm amazed he's naive enough to plan his own training.
SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
This kid really has no idea what he's doing. I'm amazed he's naive enough to plan his own training.
Xoman is also wrong.
Tinman does prescribe mile repeats.
He doesn’t prescribe mile pace 5x a week.
He does use tempos and CV intervals all year round, including the last few weeks before big races.
Just check the logs of his athletes that are on Strava.
HRE wrote:
SouthernFriedRealist wrote:
This kid really has no idea what he's doing. I'm amazed he's naive enough to plan his own training.
It's running. Not near surgery. Many successful runners have planned their own training.
JS marathon training program is a superior alternative. His runners get ready sharpened for the Big race in just 8-12 weeks on relatively low mileage. www.coachjs.se
dffasfadfasdfasd wrote:
Marathon Training Philosophy:
by Tom “Tinman” Schwartz
Marathon running is a big challenge. Covering 26.2 miles by foot at a good pace is not easy. To do the event well, one must have performed excellent training for several months. Since, I do NOT believe in “surviving” a marathon, I’ll show you how do it the right way.
Committed runners should prepare well five to six months prior to a marathon race, at least. The first two to three months should be focused on 10k training. The last two to four months should be marathon-specific training. During 10k training, one should focus on consistently doing the types of workouts that lay the foundation for marathon-specific training.
Before describing Tinman Marathon Training, let’s look at 10k training in more detail. In truth, there are many ways to prepare for this event but, in brief, two main approaches are viable:
Approach # 1: Run moderate mileage every week and do plenty of faster paced interval, tempo, or varied paced speed runs. By moderate mileage I mean ~110 miles per week for elite runners, ~90 miles per week for semi-elites, ~70 miles per week for “club” runners, ~ 50 miles per week for “local” runners, and ~30 miles per week for novice runners.
Approach # 2: Run high mileage and do less fast running. By high mileage I mean ~125 miles per week for elite runners, ~ 105 miles per week for semi-elite runners, ~ 85 miles per week for club runners, ~ 65 miles per week for local runners, and ~ 45 miles per week for novice runners. You should not do long, fast runs during 10k training, even if you are doing high mileage. However, you could do many double day runs – two runs per day – to elevate aerobic volume. An elite and semi- elite runner using this method would run 90-120 minute per day in most cases. A club and local runner would cover 60-90 minutes of running most days (a weekly single run of 90-120 minutes is fine). A novice runner would cover 30-60 minutes of running most days (a weekly 90 minute run would be fine) and have 1-2 days of rest per week, too.
In my book I’ll show you examples of 10k training schedules. Various schedules will be shown, relative to ability classification and mileage per week. For now, just think “balanced training.” It should be consistent and moderate in how much fast running you do.
You should reach the end of your 10k training phase without fatigue, injury or malaise! Avoid the trap of racing too often: it would deplete your adaptive reserves. Use common sense and be patient. Never run “super-hero workouts” and be sure to take care of the little details like icing sore spots, backing off when you feel pain or exhaustion, eating right, and getting enough sleep. Remember, you want to be “hungry” to start marathon-specific training!
Tinman Marathon Training is all about two words “Big Workouts“. It really is that simple. Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week. If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Big Workout per week. However, most runners who do it the Tinman Way find that the shorter, slower runs between the Big Workouts make all the difference in the world. Many runners I’ve coached have made comments about how good they feel doing Big Workouts because they aren’t running too much distance work between each Big Workout. That is, they are using a bigger variance between the important (key) workouts and the regular, every day, runs. For example, a club runner using a different training program might be running 10 milers every day between harder workouts but when using Tinman Marathon Training they run just 7 miles between key workouts. I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!
Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity. Since I am not a sports psychologist, I’ll focus on the exercise physiology elements – in my book.
So, let’s get to the core of Tinman Marathon Training: Big Workouts. I’ll provide samples of Big Workouts that one might do (see table 1.0). Note there are many combinations and types of Big Workouts. I show them in my book. Hopefully, however, what I show below gives you a reasonably good enough idea of what Big Workouts are like.
One final note, do take care to build up to Big Workouts slowly. Be sure to have a graded exercise test from your cardiologist or sports medicine physician before attempting any training schedule or workout provided by me. It is assumed that you are healthy and have no injuries. It is also assumed that you have built up to such workouts over many weeks and months. If in doubt, consult a doctor who is specialist in exercise.
Tinman
Big Workout Examples
Elite Runners:
10 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 8 x 1 mile or 4 x 2 miles at HMP (half-marathon pace), jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. Run 2 miles to cool down, including short but quick striders for a touch of “speed.”
Semi-Elite Runners:
10 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 7 x 1 mile or 3 x 2 miles plus 1 mile at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. Run 2 miles to cool down, including short, quick striders for a touch of “speed.”
Club Runners:
8 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 6 x 1 mile or 3 x 2 miles at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. 2 miles EZ to cool down, including short, quick striders for “speed.”
Local Runners:
7 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 5 x 1 mile or 2 x 2 mile plus 1 mile at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. 2 miles EZ to cool down, including short, quick striders for “speed.”
Novice Runners:
6 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 4 x 1 mile or 2 x 2 miles at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. Run 2 miles to cool down, including short, quick striders for “speed.”
What I find interesting, is that the week after CIM (or couple weeks), Brogan Austin did some podcasts and talked about his training and what a week looks like. Types of intervals, hill repeats, etc. And the 15 weeks prior to CIM was all on Strava, described almost in great detail.
By the end of December, Brogan was doing a podcast and when asked about his training ,he said something along the lines of "Tinman instructed me to be vague about the training" or not give out any details. And if you look at Brogan's Strava page now, it's almost all easy running and strides. No workouts uploaded, no details.
What's with the secrecy? For the record, I like Brogan Austin, for what little I know about him. And as someone mentioned above, I think his success is more about taking someone who overtrained for a decade, dialing it back and letting all those years of training come to fruition. There is something to the "not over-doing it" aspect as well.. it's very Eliud Kipchoge'ish, But, Tinman instructing his athletes to hide their training.. seems kinda extreme.
Granted, his training plans at his property to an extent, so he can coach people and instruct however he wants. Not the greatest for having an impact on running as a whole, however. Brogan is having incredible success, so it would be cool to see what he's doing to make it happen.
Again, I like both Tinman and Brogan.. I listen to every podcast and interview I can find. And I wish them the best.. just makes it hard to follow them if you can't... follow them.
Yupp... a few athletes who are on my local USATF "elite" team (AKA guys who aspire to get OTQ's) pay Tinman to coach them. Up until Brogan won CIM they posted all their workouts and runs on Strava. Now none of them post anything on Strava. Karissa Schweizer has done something similar with locking her Strava down.
Its interesting and I agree, I don't understand the need for secrecy. My opinion is we should all be willing to share training philosophies and ideas to help everyone understand training better
Just theorizing here, I'd think that if Tinman is making a chunk of his living by coaching people he'd prefer that they don't post what they're doing publicly to prevent others who want to use his ideas can see how he trains people for free.
Meh, *shoulder shrug*
In my opinion there is a lot more a coach has to offer than purely writing the workouts, e.g. knowing when to rest, when to push the envelope, what is right for a specific athlete, etc....
I could try to recreate a Tinman plan based on what has been posted on Strava in the past, but it would be far inferior to actually having him actually coaching me
