he ran 62:39 half at Monunmental half on 11/3. I think that correlates reasonably close to a 2:10 factoring in he wasn't really tapered or fresh for the half.
he ran 62:39 half at Monunmental half on 11/3. I think that correlates reasonably close to a 2:10 factoring in he wasn't really tapered or fresh for the half.
Hdjsjdhdgsh wrote:
The part that I don’t get is how Tinman thought, based on his workouts and training, that he was ready for 2:10. How does anything that he did in training indicate that?
I thought the same thing. My only guess was that Tinman had seen this kind of training from other athletes and could extrapolate. But has Tinman coached any other 2:10 marathoners? Even any other 2:12s?
Shorters was very structured and very consistent week in and week out year to year regardless of which distance he was racing.
Hdjsjdhdgsh wrote:
The part that I don’t get is how Tinman thought, based on his workouts and training, that he was ready for 2:10. How does anything that he did in training indicate that?
I mean, he must know that (according to LRC) the back half of CIM is done on roller skates and at least worth 14 minutes faster than your best marathon. Maybe he miscalculated that a bit.
Allen1959 wrote:
... I will add that, these days, LT pace is 15K race pace, and CV pace is faster than 8K pace ...
*That is assuming that LT pace is 1-hour race pace, and CV is about 30-minute race pace ...
Actually (adjusts poindexter glasses) CV is anywhere from 8k-12k pace. Most of the time people think of it as 10k pace.
jp88 wrote:
he ran 62:39 half at Monunmental half on 11/3. I think that correlates reasonably close to a 2:10 factoring in he wasn't really tapered or fresh for the half.
Correct.
If you plug 62:39 into Tinmans online calculator you get 2:10:28 which is what he said Tinman predicted. That’s how he got the number
HobbyJogging.com wrote:
jp88 wrote:
he ran 62:39 half at Monunmental half on 11/3. I think that correlates reasonably close to a 2:10 factoring in he wasn't really tapered or fresh for the half.
Correct.
If you plug 62:39 into Tinmans online calculator you get 2:10:28 which is what he said Tinman predicted. That’s how he got the number
This calculator gives it 2:12:09, so is most accurate for the millionth time.
http://www.howardgrubb.co.uk/athletics/wmalookup06.htmlGood question...that's what I'm not sure either. That's where I would see the value of sustained MP runs..to give a pretty good estimate and at worse know what type of pace may be too aggressive
Look at Kipchoges training. All his workouts in relation to his marathon pace appear to be either faster fartlek or slower steady state paces. I don’t see him specifically trying to run at marathon pace.
Nearly all “Workouts” should be done in the 80 to 88% range of heart rate which is the tempo range. Marathon pace Is between 82-85%. So one can run about 20ish seconds per mile faster or slower than marathon pace and still get the desired benefit from the workout.
Actually I think about a 2 hour run at 20 seconds per mile slower than your marathon pace is the best workout a marathoner can do.
what is isbn wrote:
Did Tinman every publish his book?
He has never published the book he mentions above. "Build your running body" is completely different.
Shorter has always seemed very organized and analytical. But I read an interview with Jack Bacheler who was talking about his Florida days and his training with Shorter. He said that they often got together for track workouts and had no idea what that particular session was going to be when they met. They'd decide during their warm up what sort of intervals they'd do.
Shorter was well-known for going slow (7:00+) on his easy days.
Frank's training from Joe Henderson's "Road Racers and Their Training":
"Two interval sessions per week; no more than 5K total distance run (e.g. 12 x400 with short recovery); alwasy faster than 5K pace; longest interval one mile at sea level, 3/4 mile at altitude. All other runs easy. 80-140 miles total."
Sample Week:
Sun- 2 hour run
Mon-easy
Tue- intervals
Wed- easy
Thur- intervals
Fri- easy
Sat- Easy or race
Favorite workout: 12x400
YMMV wrote:
Shorter was well-known for going slow (7:00+) on his easy days.
Frank's training from Joe Henderson's "Road Racers and Their Training":
"Two interval sessions per week; no more than 5K total distance run (e.g. 12 x400 with short recovery); alwasy faster than 5K pace; longest interval one mile at sea level, 3/4 mile at altitude. All other runs easy. 80-140 miles total."
Sample Week:
Sun- 2 hour run
Mon-easy
Tue- intervals
Wed- easy
Thur- intervals
Fri- easy
Sat- Easy or race
Favorite workout: 12x400
Reading about what Shorter was "well known" for doing in his prime today is fascinating for a guy of my vintage who was running seriously at that time. He became well know for most of this stuff when he was well past his prime. In his prime the stories we heard were different In those days there was sort of a predecessor to the internet that kept serious runners up on the doings of other serious runners. I had a roommate for a time who knew a couple guys who'd moved to Gainesville to train with the Florida Track Club and were sometimes doing track sessions or distance runs with the top guys. Sometimes they'd call our apartment with some sort of update about some of the runs they, or the top guys in the club did, Shorter included. And I did a couple runs and a bit of hanging out with a guy who had been one of those top guys and did some runs with Shorter after he'd left Florida. There was never any mention at all of Shorter doing any runs that slowly. Bacheler was well known for doing his AM run at around 7:00 pace or slower with a big group but in an interview said that Shorter rarely ran with them because he liked to run later in the morning and faster than that.
I'm not arguing with any of the assertions made here about what Shorter did and didn't do. In later years he definitely was running that slowly and even slower. But it's interesting to me that he's now well known for things that he was not well known for when he was at his best. Either the accounts of his training that came out in those years were wrong, which could well be, or there's been a bit of revisionism going on.
I'm afraid I can only go by the "horses mouth" stuff like I posted. There was somewhere an anecdote where club-level runners would "win" runs on easy days and Frank would just roll his eyes and then crush them on the track the next day.
Kenny Moore famously was made to do hard/easy by Bowerman, to the point where Bowerman would oversee his two-mile jog and have spies out so that Kenny would not do any more. After Oregon he still did and AM and PM 3-mile jog four days/week. Sounds like Frank took a page from this playbook, in which case Bowerman influenced Shorter via Kenny.
YMMV wrote:
I'm afraid I can only go by the "horses mouth" stuff like I posted. There was somewhere an anecdote where club-level runners would "win" runs on easy days and Frank would just roll his eyes and then crush them on the track the next day.
+1
Perpetual Nubbinses. They exist everywhere, they also like to gossip in hyperbole about how the big guns do things, because they can never actually stick long enough to see it fully and with focus.
I always saw the comment about Shorter's training partners "winning" applied to track sessions rather than distance runs. Anyway, I originally posted in response to the guy who wonders how runners in the 80s would not have been doing something on their long runs that Shorter had done to say that it's likely those 80s guys didn't know Shorter was doing that sort of thing, if in fact he was, because that information wasn't widely known at the time.
Another in-depth interview. A lot of details not in the podcast.
Thank you, curiousrunner.
curiousrunner1 wrote:
I found it interesting that Brogan did not train specifically at MP according to the Citius Mag podcast. Can anyone offer insight on Tinman's marathon training philosophy or workouts?
Seems very non-Canova style which incorporates alot of MP from what I understand.
A better choice will be the new interesting coach JS. He only needs 2-3 months to peak his marathon runners.
You find him here
www.coachjs.seRocket fire wrote:
Look at Kipchoges training. All his workouts in relation to his marathon pace appear to be either faster fartlek or slower steady state paces. I don’t see him specifically trying to run at marathon pace.
Nearly all “Workouts” should be done in the 80 to 88% range of heart rate which is the tempo range. Marathon pace Is between 82-85%. So one can run about 20ish seconds per mile faster or slower than marathon pace and still get the desired benefit from the workout.
Actually I think about a 2 hour run at 20 seconds per mile slower than your marathon pace is the best workout a marathoner can do.
I see that you don`t have any insight in Kipchoge`s training. He is doing a lot stuff in lactate intervals at his marathon pace. It`s no fartlek. It`s mostly exact timed track workouts. Sometimes the track is muddy from heavy rains and then they change to structured fartlek at the roads as a substitute.
- Canova`s inheritor -