Brogan Austin- "No MP training." thoughts on Tinman.

Marathon Training Philosophy:

by Tom “Tinman” Schwartz

Marathon running is a big challenge. Covering 26.2 miles by foot at a good pace is not easy. To do the event well, one must have performed excellent training for several months. Since, I do NOT believe in “surviving” a marathon, I’ll show you how do it the right way.

Committed runners should prepare well five to six months prior to a marathon race, at least. The first two to three months should be focused on 10k training. The last two to four months should be marathon-specific training. During 10k training, one should focus on consistently doing the types of workouts that lay the foundation for marathon-specific training.

Before describing Tinman Marathon Training, let’s look at 10k training in more detail. In truth, there are many ways to prepare for this event but, in brief, two main approaches are viable:

Approach # 1: Run moderate mileage every week and do plenty of faster paced interval, tempo, or varied paced speed runs. By moderate mileage I mean ~110 miles per week for elite runners, ~90 miles per week for semi-elites, ~70 miles per week for “club” runners, ~ 50 miles per week for “local” runners, and ~30 miles per week for novice runners.

Approach # 2: Run high mileage and do less fast running. By high mileage I mean ~125 miles per week for elite runners, ~ 105 miles per week for semi-elite runners, ~ 85 miles per week for club runners, ~ 65 miles per week for local runners, and ~ 45 miles per week for novice runners. You should not do long, fast runs during 10k training, even if you are doing high mileage. However, you could do many double day runs – two runs per day – to elevate aerobic volume. An elite and semi- elite runner using this method would run 90-120 minute per day in most cases. A club and local runner would cover 60-90 minutes of running most days (a weekly single run of 90-120 minutes is fine). A novice runner would cover 30-60 minutes of running most days (a weekly 90 minute run would be fine) and have 1-2 days of rest per week, too.

In my book I’ll show you examples of 10k training schedules. Various schedules will be shown, relative to ability classification and mileage per week. For now, just think “balanced training.” It should be consistent and moderate in how much fast running you do.

You should reach the end of your 10k training phase without fatigue, injury or malaise! Avoid the trap of racing too often: it would deplete your adaptive reserves. Use common sense and be patient. Never run “super-hero workouts” and be sure to take care of the little details like icing sore spots, backing off when you feel pain or exhaustion, eating right, and getting enough sleep. Remember, you want to be “hungry” to start marathon-specific training!

Tinman Marathon Training is all about two words “Big Workouts“. It really is that simple. Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week. If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Big Workout per week. However, most runners who do it the Tinman Way find that the shorter, slower runs between the Big Workouts make all the difference in the world. Many runners I’ve coached have made comments about how good they feel doing Big Workouts because they aren’t running too much distance work between each Big Workout. That is, they are using a bigger variance between the important (key) workouts and the regular, every day, runs. For example, a club runner using a different training program might be running 10 milers every day between harder workouts but when using Tinman Marathon Training they run just 7 miles between key workouts. I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!

Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity. Since I am not a sports psychologist, I’ll focus on the exercise physiology elements – in my book.

So, let’s get to the core of Tinman Marathon Training: Big Workouts. I’ll provide samples of Big Workouts that one might do (see table 1.0). Note there are many combinations and types of Big Workouts. I show them in my book. Hopefully, however, what I show below gives you a reasonably good enough idea of what Big Workouts are like.

One final note, do take care to build up to Big Workouts slowly. Be sure to have a graded exercise test from your cardiologist or sports medicine physician before attempting any training schedule or workout provided by me. It is assumed that you are healthy and have no injuries. It is also assumed that you have built up to such workouts over many weeks and months. If in doubt, consult a doctor who is specialist in exercise.
Tinman

Big Workout Examples

Elite Runners:
10 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 8 x 1 mile or 4 x 2 miles at HMP (half-marathon pace), jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. Run 2 miles to cool down, including short but quick striders for a touch of “speed.”

Semi-Elite Runners:
10 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 7 x 1 mile or 3 x 2 miles plus 1 mile at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. Run 2 miles to cool down, including short, quick striders for a touch of “speed.”

Club Runners:
8 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 6 x 1 mile or 3 x 2 miles at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. 2 miles EZ to cool down, including short, quick striders for “speed.”

Local Runners:
7 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 5 x 1 mile or 2 x 2 mile plus 1 mile at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. 2 miles EZ to cool down, including short, quick striders for “speed.”

Novice Runners:
6 miles EZ, including easy striders, then 4 x 1 mile or 2 x 2 miles at HMP, jogging 1 minute per mile for recovery. Run 2 miles to cool down, including short, quick striders for “speed.”

Just look up Bill Rodgers training log, which the thread about him the other week about him doing slow mileage reminded me of. If it worked back than, when America was at its best as far as depth goes which was the 70s/80s, why fix it? As the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I like how "speed" is in quotes like he is talking about it sarcastically or something. Like they definitely are not for "speed"

That long post on Tinman marathon training sounds very different than what Brogan describes in his training. When was that article posted? Did Brogan do "big workouts" that I missed? My takeaway from recent tinman stuff is the mantra of "keep the ball rolling", i.e. no heroic workouts (like he describes for 10K training). It seems a bit contradictory, at least for the marathon part.

And no MP does seem a bit strange.

“Race pace” is a mental model we create in our heads and that is what Tinman has said in the past. It is a mental model not a physiological model

Did Tinman every publish his book?

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YMMV wrote:

That long post on Tinman marathon training sounds very different than what Brogan describes in his training. When was that article posted? Did Brogan do "big workouts" that I missed? My takeaway from recent tinman stuff is the mantra of "keep the ball rolling", i.e. no heroic workouts (like he describes for 10K training). It seems a bit contradictory, at least for the marathon part.

And no MP does seem a bit strange.

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he published Build Your Running Body

MARATHON PEAKING: by Tom “Tinman” Schwartz

Peaking for a marathon is an important consideration for runners because so much time and energy is invested in the weeks and months of preparation for the event. After all, who would want to work so hard yet not perform well on the most important day?

Marathons are brutal beasts. Compared to 5k or 10k events, they require a longer buildup period, more mileage per week and a more drastic tapering phase. Why more drastic? The amount of stored sugar in your muscles and liver must be exceptionally high in order to last the duration of the event. Without an overloading effect due to proper tapering and nutrition, you lose speed drastically after about 90 minutes of running. Additionally, because mileage tends to be quite high and long runs, a common training element of marathon preparation, tends to be quite abusive to connective tissue in your legs, more tapering will help mend beat up legs.

Think of tapering as relative to the type and amount of training you have done. If you have pushed the limits of volume and duration of your runs, you will need a longer tapering phase. If you are putting in 100-mile training weeks, your legs might be thrashed after several weeks of it. Therefore, tapering for 3-5 weeks might be necessary for you to race a marathon well. On the other hand, if you choose to be more conservative and run 70-80 miles per week, your legs might be considerably more fresh. In such a case, a long taper will not be necessary at all.

Your muscle fiber types also determines how long you must taper. People who are naturally endurance oriented and not speedy will need short tapering phases. I have observed that slow twitch runners tend to lose aerobic endurance quickly upon cessation of mileage and suffer greatly in races when they taper too soon and too much. At the other end of the continuum, runners who are speedy tend to retain aerobic endurance more easily, so they can afford to taper longer. Most runners are somewhere in between these two extremes. However, no matter what you do, remember, if you are not tired, sore, and beat up, you don,t need to taper much.

Failing to do well in a marathon typically has one of two reasons. The first is due to tapering too early and not having sufficient endurance to last the event duration. The second is due to sore legs. If you have sore legs in the first 10 miles or your legs are stiff and you are laboring, it probably due to excessive training: too much, too hard, too long, for too many weeks. If you do fail to perform well, ask yourself which one of the two is the cause, and learn from your mistakes so that next time you will conquer the beast!

I suggest that you pick one of three peaking plans: short, medium or long duration. Choose the one that fits your situation and needs. The short peak phase lasts 4-5 days only. The medium one lasts 8- 10 days. The long one last 15-21 days. If in doubt, pick the middle one.

Long runs are a critical element of marathon training, but it is important to back off the duration so that your legs won,t be too sore on race day. If you having been really pushing the mileage high and your long runs long, then start tapering the long runs about 4-5 weeks before race day. If you have been reasonable and not overextending yourself, your last long run can be 22 days before your race. I suggest cutting your long run by 20-25% on day 15 before your race and 30-35% on day 8 before your race. For example, if you have been running 20 milers regularly for a long run, then two weekends before your race run 15 miles only at an easy to moderate speed. Then, one weekend before your event run 13 miles at a Slow pace.

Key workouts are an important consideration too. In the last three weeks, I suggest you do one mid- week workout that is a bit more speedy than your long run. The three key workouts I recommend in order of succession are as follows:

1) warmup, run 5,4,3,2,1 mile at Marathon Pace (be realistic), rest 2-3 minutes between each, cool- down; (if in doubt, skip the 5 mile rep)

2) warmup, run 5-6 x 1 mile at Lactate Threshold Pace, jog 1-2 minutes between each, cool-down;

3) warmup, run 2 x 1 mile at 10k pace, jog 2 minutes between, cool-down.
Good Luck! Tinman

Medium Length Peaking Plan
Listed below is a medium length peaking plan. The sample runner has been running 70 miles per week for 3 months.

Day 22 – Long Run, 20 miles Easy, including 6 x 100 at 5k speed
Day 21 – 4 mile Slow
Day 20 – 2 runs, each 4 miles Slow, including 3 x 100m at 5k speed, in each run
Day 19 – 10 miles Easy
Day 18 – 1 miles Easy, 5,4,3,2,1 mile at Marathon Pace, rest 2 minutes between each, 1 mile Easy Day 17 – 4 mile Slow
Day 16 – 7 miles Slow, including 3 x 100 at 5k speed
.... 70 miles total for the week

Day 15 – Long Run, 15 miles Easy, including 6 x 100 at 5k speed
Day 14 – 4 miles Slow
Day 13 – 2 runs, each 4 miles Slow, including 3 x 100 at 5k speed, in each run
Day 12 – 10 miles Slow
Day 11 – 1 mile Easy, 4 x 30 second striders, then 5-6 x 1 mile at LT (about 10-12 mile race pace, no faster), jog 2 minutes between each, then 1 mile Easy
Day 10 – 4 miles Slow
Day 09 – 4 miles Slow
.... 52-55 miles total for the week

Day 08 – Long Run, 13-14 miles Slow, including 6 x 100 at 5k speed
Day 07 – 4 miles Slow
Day 06 – 1 mile Easy, 4 x 30 second striders, 2 x 1 mile at 10k pace, jog 2-3 minutes, 1 mile Easy Day 05 – 4 miles Easy
Day 04 – 4 miles Easy, including 4 x 100 at 5k speed
Day 03 – Rest
Day 02 – jog 3 miles
Day 01 – jog 2 miles, including 4 x 100 at 5k speed
..... 34- 35 miles total for the week

Day 00 – Marathon Race

Both those articles are from the Run Zone forum he has. I believe they're from 2006, so I would imagine quite a bit of tweaking occurred over the last decade plus.

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curiousrunner1 wrote:

I found it interesting that Brogan did not train specifically at MP according to the Citius Mag podcast. Can anyone offer insight on Tinman's marathon training philosophy or workouts?
Seems very non-Canova style which incorporates alot of MP from what I understand.

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Can someone provide a link to his book? I can only find DVDs ... ?

Also, claims to run almost all of his workouts on the treadmill - "to keep a controlled environment and always hit my paces."

LRC fanbois and treadmill haters please take note....

This is interesting...I actually took a similar approach in prepping for my first marathon...I tried to incorporate a larger volume per week of 10k paced work....I had not read about Tinmans training but I had read a lot about Seilers studies on polarized training....pretty much the sweet spot is 10k work. However, after doing this approach....I didn't feel prepared for the marathon yet because I think there is mental and physical value in doing marathon paced work. How does he setup his specific phase? Is it 2 months of specific phase training....any long sustained runs at mp at all? I ended up finishing high 2:50s for my first marathon. I believe I prob took a similar approach but I feel like maybe more mp work would have helped me finish the last 10k better...

looks like he believes doing 2-4 months of specific marathon training...I think 2 months may not be enough for some...this is what I did and though I felt prepared I think 4 months may be better

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curiousrunner1 wrote:

I found it interesting that Brogan did not train specifically at MP according to the Citius Mag podcast. Can anyone offer insight on Tinman's marathon training philosophy or workouts?
Seems very non-Canova style which incorporates alot of MP from what I understand.

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I meant to say low 2:50s (like 2:50:50s)I think that's the right lingo

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YMMV wrote:
And no MP does seem a bit strange.

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Yepper Depper wrote:

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YMMV wrote:
And no MP does seem a bit strange.

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Why is it strange? MP is no man's land in terms of training stimulous. 30 years ago no one did MP stuff. VO2, tempo, long run, mileage. That's how all marathoners used to train. I ran a of my 'thons and never once trained at my actual race pace.

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