I hear a lot of people talk about success from Daniels, Hansons, Pfitzingers, etc... I'm curios who has had success with their own plans?
I hear a lot of people talk about success from Daniels, Hansons, Pfitzingers, etc... I'm curios who has had success with their own plans?
Look
All those plans Daniels phitz Hal higdon others work off of Arthur lydiards plan with some slight differences...Daniels lactate threshold phitz was very high mileage etc
Read lydiards books
And tweek it to your needs
It works
Take what you need leave the rest wrote:
Look
All those plans Daniels phitz Hal higdon others work off of Arthur lydiards plan with some slight differences...Daniels lactate threshold phitz was very high mileage etc
Read lydiards books
And tweek it to your needs
It works
Pfitz, yes. Very, very Lydiardesque.
Higdon? Daniels? Not so much. I mean, Daniels is a big fan of doing some VO2 max stuff early. He also starts the traditional tempo paces early. Two things Lydiard was NOT a fan of.
Still, I'm curious to hear from those who have put their own thing together. I did last spring. But it was my first marathon and I had been injured. So basically I just didn't want to follow a plan that might be "too much" and get injured again. Cuz if it was in the plan, I was probably going to run it and probably push too hard while doing it.
imnotsurethatwordmeanswhatyouthinkitmeans wrote:
Take what you need leave the rest wrote:
Look
All those plans Daniels phitz Hal higdon others work off of Arthur lydiards plan with some slight differences...Daniels lactate threshold phitz was very high mileage etc
Read lydiards books
And tweek it to your needs
It works
Pfitz, yes. Very, very Lydiardesque.
Higdon? Daniels? Not so much. I mean, Daniels is a big fan of doing some VO2 max stuff early. He also starts the traditional tempo paces early. Two things Lydiard was NOT a fan of.
Still, I'm curious to hear from those who have put their own thing together. I did last spring. But it was my first marathon and I had been injured. So basically I just didn't want to follow a plan that might be "too much" and get injured again. Cuz if it was in the plan, I was probably going to run it and probably push too hard while doing it.
That's not true, Lydiard just didn't call it tempo runs. He called it steady state runs and runs at a 3/4 of a effort. And, he did stuff like 10k time trials every so often during the base phase. And, he said people should fartlek as often as possible.
I don't know if anyone's marathon plan is purely their own. We all have to look for a starting point somewhere. Most of what I did was a mix of ideas I'd gotten from Lydiard, Ron Clarke, Joe Henderson, and several others . But it was my own take on their ideas. There was never anyone else's plan. That was the case with pretty much everyone that I knew who ran marathons in the 70s. Self coaching was much more common than having a coach was.
I've taken bits and pieces from what I've read on here, but the plan I've written for my spring marathon involves 5 runs per week for about 80 miles and two days of kettlebell. Coming off a fall half where I did 65mpw on 5 runs w/kettlebell and ran 1:11, so figured I would up the volume. I work full time and know the strength training keeps me injury free. Sample week:
Sunday: 500kb swings in 20 min 50#. 10 Turkish getsups each arm at 40#.
Monday: 13 mile run w some steady
Tuesday: 15-16 mile run w/ 4x2mi or 6-8x mile at 10-20 sec faster than MP
Wednesday: same as Sunday
Thursday: 16 mile run w 6, building up to 10-12 of tempo towards marathon goal pace - 5:40
Friday: 13 mile run
Saturday: 20-23 mile run. Alternating weeks of 15ish at 6-6:10 pace during, 8-10 at 5:40-5:45, or steady 6:20-6:30 throughout if I'm feeling sore and sluggish.
Repeat now until May with race day 5:26 in Ottawa.
Last three weeks 75,75,77.
Goal of the plan is to get a lot of miles at goal MP - 5:43 (Thursday, Saturday), some faster (Tuesday), and build consistent strength (doing mileage in 5 singles w weights).
I had success with this for a half, but we shall see for a full. Expecting the added 15mpw and longer buildup (20 weeks vs 10 for the half) will help.
HRE wrote:
Self coaching was much more common than having a coach was.
Agreed.
Sand Dunes wrote:
imnotsurethatwordmeanswhatyouthinkitmeans wrote:
Pfitz, yes. Very, very Lydiardesque.
Higdon? Daniels? Not so much. I mean, Daniels is a big fan of doing some VO2 max stuff early. He also starts the traditional tempo paces early. Two things Lydiard was NOT a fan of.
Still, I'm curious to hear from those who have put their own thing together. I did last spring. But it was my first marathon and I had been injured. So basically I just didn't want to follow a plan that might be "too much" and get injured again. Cuz if it was in the plan, I was probably going to run it and probably push too hard while doing it.
That's not true, Lydiard just didn't call it tempo runs. He called it steady state runs and runs at a 3/4 of a effort. And, he did stuff like 10k time trials every so often during the base phase. And, he said people should fartlek as often as possible.
I don't totally agree. Lydiard's steady states were an hour or more. They were definitely slower than Daniels' preferred tempo pace.
Fartlek for Lydiard is just that, speedplay. Lydiard was adamantly against raising the lactate in the blood too soon. He would never advocate doing that anywhere close to the base phase.
I'm certainly not a Lydiard expert, but the books I have with his training tables in it all have 10K time trials well after the base phase.
Run 2 to 2.5 hours
Recover
Run 2 to 2.5 hours
Recover
Run 2 to 2.5 hours
Recover
............
trail blazer wrote:
I hear a lot of people talk about success from Daniels, Hansons, Pfitzingers, etc... I'm curios who has had success with their own plans?
"Success" is a subjective term, but last year I wrote a plan that netted a 3:07 marathon at age 58. That is comparable to a 2:35, based on age-graded percentages. My PR, set as a youth (age 23), was 2:40.
The plan was largely based on Pfitzinger and Daniels concepts, but built on a 9-day cycle. Each cycle included a long run, a medium-long run, a threshold workout and a VO2max workout. The other five days were easy recovery runs, bicycling or rest days.
Weekly mileage goal was 50-55, but averaged about 45, as a few injuries had me on the bike more than planned.
The long runs were faster than recovery pace, but still in the "easy" range, about MP plus 45-60 seconds per mile.
The medium-long runs were about MP plus 20-seconds per mile, sometimes progressing to faster than MP. Unlike most published schedules, my plan never specifically targeted marathon pace.
The threshold workouts were long repeats with short recoveries (Daniels "cruise intervals"), or 4- to 5-mile runs at perceived one-hour race pace (15K race pace for me).
The VO2max workouts were the usual 800m to one-mile repeats, a little faster than 5K race pace.
Workout progression during the training period was generally "increase distance" (the length of the repeats, or the threshold run length). I also reduced recovery time for repeats.
Long runs progressed by length, up to one 23-miler. My plan did not tie long run length to any percentage of total weekly miles, but if each full nine-day cycle is considered a "week," then the percentage would be close to most plans, I believe.
As I mentioned, I never targeted marathon pace in training. Plus, I had run only one marathon during the previous 14 years (3:25 the year before). Still, on race day I intuitively settled into 7:05 per mile pace. That was after a conservative first mile or two. I also slowed some during the final couple miles, so the actual average pace was 7:09.
I think Allen has it down.
I follow a very similar schedule and my focus now at my age is to run hard on hard days, easy on easy days, with emphasis on sleep and listening to my body. Injuries are always just around the corner if you don’t listen accordingly.
Anthony Costales, who's run 2:13 in back to back years at CIM works full time and writes his own training.