• YMMV
      registered
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 9:19AM - in reply to Wutness
      • YMMV
        registered
      • Wutness wrote:

        YMMV wrote:

        Ultrarunner of the year for 2018 will possibly will go to Jeff Browning, low-carb, low-key, smart AF and fully fat-adapted.

        ...

        Arguing what running star eats what is a waste of time.

        So why tell us about Jeff Browning?

        He does eat carbs, btw, just not as much as most. And he sucks down loads of sugar gels during races.

        He's great and deserves ultrarunner of the year. I've listened to him on several podcasts and I like him, but he does have a tendency toward getting into faddish woo.

        Hi T-Rect.

        I tell you about Jeff Browning because he is low-key the smartest and most consistent ultra guy out there, and an example for all runners of how to be persistent in trouble-shooting your own limiting factors. It has allowed him to be one of the best when most have waved the white flag (mid-forties). This is where he separates himself from guys like Sage or even Walmsley. As a result of his evolution , he now qualifies as low-carb by any standards of a running diet (although on back-loading days he may approach 200+g, as does Bitter).

        As far as carbs in-race, ALL ultrarunners must do this to be competitive, even keto-adapted athletes. In-race carbs for keto athletes are more like a rocket boost than the dire necessity they are for sugar-burners. The difference is that guys like Zach and Jeff are consuming 60-80% less carbs than guys like Walmsley or Sage (see Volek's brilliant FASTER study for the physiology of why). The result is more long-term efficiency, and fewer gastrointestinal issues (hi Sage!).

        The issue isn't carbs v. no carbs, it's excessive carbs v. smart carbs. Jeff has it figured out. Although I don't have his talent by any stretch, his journey from high-carb vegan with constant body comp and GI issues to low-carb ketoadaptation and greater health and performance mirrors mine almost exactly (listen to the podcast for details). I am not an ultrarunner, but I have more than doubled the distance on my long runs (12 to 30 miles) that I can do without any caloric intake whatsoever, and with no bonking or drop in pace or energy. This is just a bonus for me, since my competitive events typically only last 1-5 minutes, 30 minutes at the outside.
    • Wutness
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 9:39AM - in reply to YMMV
      • Wutness
      • YMMV wrote:

        Wutness wrote:

        YMMV wrote:

        Ultrarunner of the year for 2018 will possibly will go to Jeff Browning, low-carb, low-key, smart AF and fully fat-adapted.

        ...

        Arguing what running star eats what is a waste of time.

        So why tell us about Jeff Browning?

        He does eat carbs, btw, just not as much as most. And he sucks down loads of sugar gels during races.

        He's great and deserves ultrarunner of the year. I've listened to him on several podcasts and I like him, but he does have a tendency toward getting into faddish woo.

        Hi T-Rect.

        I tell you about Jeff Browning because he is low-key the smartest and most consistent ultra guy out there, and an example for all runners of how to be persistent in trouble-shooting your own limiting factors. It has allowed him to be one of the best when most have waved the white flag (mid-forties). This is where he separates himself from guys like Sage or even Walmsley. As a result of his evolution , he now qualifies as low-carb by any standards of a running diet (although on back-loading days he may approach 200+g, as does Bitter).

        As far as carbs in-race, ALL ultrarunners must do this to be competitive, even keto-adapted athletes. In-race carbs for keto athletes are more like a rocket boost than the dire necessity they are for sugar-burners. The difference is that guys like Zach and Jeff are consuming 60-80% less carbs than guys like Walmsley or Sage (see Volek's brilliant FASTER study for the physiology of why). The result is more long-term efficiency, and fewer gastrointestinal issues (hi Sage!).

        The issue isn't carbs v. no carbs, it's excessive carbs v. smart carbs. Jeff has it figured out. Although I don't have his talent by any stretch, his journey from high-carb vegan with constant body comp and GI issues to low-carb ketoadaptation and greater health and performance mirrors mine almost exactly (listen to the podcast for details). I am not an ultrarunner, but I have more than doubled the distance on my long runs (12 to 30 miles) that I can do without any caloric intake whatsoever, and with no bonking or drop in pace or energy. This is just a bonus for me, since my competitive events typically only last 1-5 minutes, 30 minutes at the outside.

        I'm late to this thread and don't know what a T-Rect is. I'm not arguing any of what you say. I just read you saying Browning was a "low-carb" guy and thought that's too simplistic. Good for him for finding his pathway, but Bitter and others are still getting beat by junk-food eating women (Camille also set records in the Desert last year when Zach collapsed), junk food junkie SpeedGoat is still winning 100s at age 50, and they are all chasing records set by vegans. Not that vegan is anything either. Anyone who claims superiority of any specific diet has not been paying attention.

        Don't know what podcast you were referring to, maybe it's Negative Splits, but if not, check it out for good recent podcasts with both Jeff Browning and Zach Bitter.

        http://www.thenegativesplits.com/
    • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 9:41AM - in reply to Wutness
      • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • He's telling us about Browning constantly because thats all there is, Browning, Bitter and Olson.

        I think its great that Browning has figured out a diet and fueling plan that works for him. Allows him to compete without the GI issues. For real thats great. But, I imagine going much slower than carb eaters helps keep those GI issues and bonking at bay as well, and the lower carb intake will certainly limit your ability to red line (I know this from experience) so yeah....dont eat carbs, go slower, dont bonk, dont have GI issues. But if you want to go fast?

        Look, all these guys built a base on carbs, then switched to a low carb diet. Have they become faster? No. Does it help with reducing ups and downs during races? Probably. Is it healthier? Science says no, but everyone has free will.
    • YMMV
      registered
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 9:59AM - in reply to YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • YMMV
        registered
      • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown wrote:

        He's telling us about Browning constantly because thats all there is, Browning, Bitter and Olson.

        I think its great that Browning has figured out a diet and fueling plan that works for him. Allows him to compete without the GI issues. For real thats great. But, I imagine going much slower than carb eaters helps keep those GI issues and bonking at bay as well, and the lower carb intake will certainly limit your ability to red line (I know this from experience) so yeah....dont eat carbs, go slower, dont bonk, dont have GI issues. But if you want to go fast?

        Look, all these guys built a base on carbs, then switched to a low carb diet. Have they become faster? No. Does it help with reducing ups and downs during races? Probably. Is it healthier? Science says no, but everyone has free will.

        Your brain fog must be dense today. I'll try to keep it simple, TRect.

        "Built a base on carbs"? If you listened to the podcast you might realize that Jeff established his career despite the setbacks caused by carbs. I myself "built a base on carbs", and it was a house of cards (house of carbs) that eventually collapsed into chronic illnes and injury.

        Did they get faster? Well they didn't start winning races until they switched. That is my definition of faster.

        Are they healthier? I suggest that you ask TIm Noakes, someone who knows more about running, diet and physiology than everyone posting on this thread combined.
    • Wutness
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 10:01AM - in reply to YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • Wutness
      • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown wrote:

        He's telling us about Browning constantly because thats all there is, Browning, Bitter and Olson.

        Olson gets grouped in there because he eats more 'primal', but he says "keto does not work for me" and points out that he has always eaten plenty of carbs and has been eating grains the past few years as he tries to come back from burnout or whatever happened. He had an amazing performance at Western States and had a great run there for a couple years, but he's hardly a poster boy for low carb.
    • Lore of old men who have gone off their rockers
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 10:39AM - in reply to YMMV
      • Lore of old men who have gone off their rockers
      • YMMV wrote:
        Are they healthier? I suggest that you ask TIm Noakes, someone who knows more about running, diet and physiology than everyone posting on this thread combined.

        Whatever you do, do not ask Tim Noakes. He'll insult you and accuse you of being part of the Illuminati.

        And don't know why he'd have inside info on the health of those guys.
    • YMMV
      registered
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 10:41AM - in reply to Lore of old men who have gone off their rockers
      • YMMV
        registered
      • Lore of old men who have gone off their rockers wrote:

        YMMV wrote:
        Are they healthier? I suggest that you ask TIm Noakes, someone who knows more about running, diet and physiology than everyone posting on this thread combined.

        Whatever you do, do not ask Tim Noakes. He'll insult you and accuse you of being part of the Illuminati.

        And don't know why he'd have inside info on the health of those guys.

        Thank you for your profound insight and wisdom mr. spammer-troll. Back on the bottle, I see.
    • Lore of old men who have gone off their rockers
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 11:06AM - in reply to YMMV
      • Lore of old men who have gone off their rockers
      • YMMV wrote:

        Lore of old men who have gone off their rockers wrote:

        YMMV wrote:
        Are they healthier? I suggest that you ask TIm Noakes, someone who knows more about running, diet and physiology than everyone posting on this thread combined.

        Whatever you do, do not ask Tim Noakes. He'll insult you and accuse you of being part of the Illuminati.

        And don't know why he'd have inside info on the health of those guys.

        Thank you for your profound insight and wisdom mr. spammer-troll. Back on the bottle, I see.

        And what am I spamming?

        (seems like I hit a nerve)
    • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 11:12AM - in reply to YMMV
      • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • First off, I'm not the poster you think I am.

        Second off, really you are showing your ignorance of 100 mile races here. People can become 'faster' in 100 mile races for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with speed or fitness. Has Browning improved his 5k, 10k or half time based on a low carb diet? Extremely doubtful. Having fewer GI issues can easily account for the difference between bonking and a DNF (or slower time) and winning a race which often times has very little to do with overall fitness.

        Oh for sure, I will make sure to run everything nutrition related by a single dude Mr Tim Noakes rather than listen to the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence out there already.
    • thruthseruum
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 11:14AM - in reply to YMMV
      • thruthseruum
      • YMMV:
        You mean this "Dr" Tim Noakes:
        https://www.medicalbrief.co.za/archives/aided-likes-noakes-anti-vaxxers-causing-real-damage/
        Helping spread the word for anti vaxxers. Talk about fads.

        The fat burning study on runners by Volek and Phinney didn't show any increase in actual running performance either. High fat burners generally have a direct decrease in performances at all events marathon and below.

        YMMV wrote:

        Lore of old men who have gone off their rockers wrote:

        YMMV wrote:
        Are they healthier? I suggest that you ask TIm Noakes, someone who knows more about running, diet and physiology than everyone posting on this thread combined.

        Whatever you do, do not ask Tim Noakes. He'll insult you and accuse you of being part of the Illuminati.

        And don't know why he'd have inside info on the health of those guys.

        Thank you for your profound insight and wisdom mr. spammer-troll. Back on the bottle, I see.
    • YMMV
      registered
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 11:22AM - in reply to thruthseruum
      • YMMV
        registered
      • Enjoy your day of mental illness, mr. Rectum, got sh#t to do.
    • red herrings everywhere
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 11:22AM - in reply to YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • red herrings everywhere
      • What a bunch of red herring the vegans are this thread are pulling. We never denied the importance of sugar for intense exercise. But, just because you need some sugar, does not mean you should base your diet on sugar. But please, keep building this strawman.
    • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 11:25AM - in reply to red herrings everywhere
      • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • I'm not even vegan. I just get tired of people holding up a diet for obese people to lose weight as being some sort of healthy diet. If you want health, you need a varied diet containing fruits, veggies, whole grains and sure throw in a little meat here in there if you so wish. But LCHF is not a healthful diet, the science is clear on this.
    • sugar tots
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 11:36AM - in reply to red herrings everywhere
      • sugar tots
      • red herrings everywhere wrote:

        What a bunch of red herring the vegans are this thread are pulling. We never denied the importance of sugar for intense exercise. But, just because you need some sugar, does not mean you should base your diet on sugar. But please, keep building this strawman.

        There's someone on this thread saying you should base your diet on sugar? I must have missed that. It's almost like you misrepresented their argument with something ridiculous just so it could be easily shot down, whatever that approach might be called.
    • You must not know much about a vegan diet
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 1:17PM - in reply to sugar tots
      • You must not know much about a vegan diet
      • sugar tots wrote:

        red herrings everywhere wrote:

        What a bunch of red herring the vegans are this thread are pulling. We never denied the importance of sugar for intense exercise. But, just because you need some sugar, does not mean you should base your diet on sugar. But please, keep building this strawman.

        There's someone on this thread saying you should base your diet on sugar? I must have missed that. It's almost like you misrepresented their argument with something ridiculous just so it could be easily shot down, whatever that approach might be called.

        Essentially all a vegan diet is, is a sugar diet. Sure, they might claim they eat starches or complex carbohydrates. But all that is, is a sugar diet. They might claim they get plenty of fats from nuts and seed. But, the amount of fat in that is poorly absorbable and of poor quality. The conversion rate of let's say flax seed into omega 3 is very low conversion. The conversion rate of beta carontine into vitamin a is very poor. This is why a lot of vegans have that orange yellowish color on there face. There body cannot convert the beta carnitine into vitamin a. Essentially giving themselves jaundice. The amount of protien in a vegan diet is that of someone during a famine.
    • ngmiler05
      registered
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 1:40PM - in reply to steak does the body good
      • ngmiler05
        registered
      • steak does the body good wrote:

        Yeah, he's not a runner. I'm 100% sure if he was more active he would eat more carbs. But on the other hand ZERO people have ran a sub 4 minute mile, sub 13 minute 5k, sub 27 minute 10k, sub 60 minute half marathon, and a sub 2:10 marathon on a meat free diet. And, you still haven't addressed his points or the studies he linked to.
        That guy promotes 0 carb wrote:

        Frank tufano promotes a zero carb diet. ZERO people have run a sub 4 mile. Sub 14 5k. Sub 30 10k. Sub 60 half. Sub 210 marathon on a zero carb diet. The fastest keto marathoners take carbs before and during their races and can't break 230

        You realize Ford Palmer is a vegan? Pretty sure he has gone sub 4 in the mile multiple times...
    • You must not know much about nutrition
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 1:57PM - in reply to You must not know much about a vegan diet
      • You must not know much about nutrition
      • You must not know much about a vegan diet wrote:

        Essentially all a vegan diet is, is a sugar diet. Sure, they might claim they eat starches or complex carbohydrates. But all that is, is a sugar diet. They might claim they get plenty of fats from nuts and seed. But, the amount of fat in that is poorly absorbable and of poor quality. The conversion rate of let's say flax seed into omega 3 is very low conversion. The conversion rate of beta carontine into vitamin a is very poor. This is why a lot of vegans have that orange yellowish color on there face. There body cannot convert the beta carnitine into vitamin a. Essentially giving themselves jaundice. The amount of protien in a vegan diet is that of someone during a famine.

        This just goes to show how little you understand nutrition. You really need to go research fiber and the role it plays not only in our overall health but quite obviously the role it plays in how our digestive tract breaks things down. Then, go eat more fiber because you are likely not getting enough.

        Its surprising to me how people who claim to be smart and up on the latest developments in nutrition science have completely overlooked the role our gut microbiome plays in our health. Probably worth researching. Spoiler alert: fiber is pretty damn important. Good luck getting even a smidgen of the recommended (which is actually lower than it should be) fiber intake on a LCHF diet.
    • Tyrone ReXXXing
      registered
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 3:11PM - in reply to YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • Tyrone ReXXXing
        registered
      • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown wrote:

        I'm not even vegan. I just get tired of people holding up a diet for obese people to lose weight as being some sort of healthy diet. If you want health, you need a varied diet containing fruits, veggies, whole grains and sure throw in a little meat here in there if you so wish. But LCHF is not a healthful diet, the science is clear on this.

        Nice post. Exactly what I have been saying. But Mr Kool-Aid Keto Klown, YMMV, is too far deep into his fad to see otherwise. I'm not close to being a vegan, so I am just defending the science here (and people like Sage), it's not my diet.

        And as far as him continuing to think those other posts were mine (NONE of them were. I've only posted under my name on this thread. 100% fact.), it shows his paranoia and projection onto others (because ironically, I guarantee he's posted under other names here, the writing style and talking points are just too obvious). But not me. I actually think before I post, so that's why I don't knock out of tons of posts in an hour. And this is about his religion, not mine

        Believe it or not I was listening to the podcast he posted this morning. Interesting story. And yes, interesting that some ultra guys can do well off a low carb (in training, not racing) diet. Are they better on it than on high carb? Not necessarily that I see (they all seemed to have a lot of success before the new diet). Are they better than the high carb athletes? Not really (sometimes, occasionally, but there are more star high carbers than low carbers).

        So what did they teach us? That one *can* do well off a low carb diet. Certain ultra runners can do this. That is interesting. Admittedly, I wouldn't have probably believed that 10 years ago. So kudos to them. But have they proved it to be superior to a high carb mixed/ominvore, or high carb vegetarian diet? NO, they have not. Not even necessarily for themselves. They were good before, and good after. There are quite possibly other reasons/changes they made in their lives/diets that led to their slight improvement. These n=1 tests are not rigorous experiments.

        But honestly, good for them for experimenting with themselves, bucking the trend, and succeeding off a less common diet. I mean that. But again: they have not proved, in any way shape or form, that high fat diets are better, for most people, for performance, weight loss, or health. This simply has not been close to being proven, despite the fanatical rhetoric and testimonials and "debunkings" of the paleo/primal/keto/taubesian cult. Yes, they have proven that high fat diets can be *as good* for *some* in weight loss, and in endurance performance, and in the case of fairly high UNsaturated fat diets (e.g., mediterranean) even for overall health. But this "could be/maybe as good as" is a FAR CRY for their claims of clear superiority in health, performance, weight loss and everything else under the sun. A far, far cry. And as far as health, there is zero proof that a high SAT fat/high red meat diet is superior for overall health compared to a low or no red meat diet. None.

        But, if one wants to roll the dice with a high red meat/high sat fat/very low carb (no whole grains or legumes or fruits), then by all means, roll that dice. It's your life. But there is very little reason, beyond the echo chamber of paleo/primal cult blogs, that you will improve performance, weight loss, or health on the diet.....*for the reasons they state.* (i.e., if you go low carb, and simultaneously cut 1000 calories from your diet, it wasn't the carb cutting per se that got you there, it was the calorie cut, and you could have achieved that in different ways. And if you cut out "all sugar" "and starches" and think was the magic of your weight loss, you may have ignored that you ALSO cut out tons of fat from cheese and peperoni on your starchy pizza, and all lard/fat from the desserts you were eating, i.e, you cut carbs AND fat, and definitely cut calories, and replaced them veggies and lean protein. Again, it wasn't the carbs per se that were making you overweight. And if you get excited about finding "The Way" of primal, start believing in your new super-diet, and because of that start going to bed earlier, working out harder, and cutting out alcohol (in your mind, a "grain/carb"), and voila, you are running better, it isn't because you went low carb per se. It's the other reasons: cut calories, cut junk food (which are often high carb AND high fat), cut alcohol, lost weight, got more sleep, got serious about your training, etc, etc. )
    • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • RE: Increasing of the amount of people quiting veganism: (formerly the vegan runner on YouTube has quit veganism) 12/11/2018 3:44PM - in reply to Tyrone ReXXXing
      • YouKnowTheTruthDeepDown
      • Completely agree with all your points. Of course there is still a lot to learn about nutrition but the science is pretty clear on most of this stuff. But these people are the equivalent of climate change deniers, they believe there is a grand conspiracy brought about by the sugar industry to skew all of nutrition science. It doesn't matter what sources you cite because they will say it is vegan propaganda regardless of the source, then post several blogs or youtube videos showing the 'truth'. They are so woke. Really, its sad.

        There definitely could be something to the idea of 'training low', doing fasted runs or runs with very little carb intake to improve fat burning. But it is a far stretch from that to suddenly low carb is better for overall health and performance.