Why ate students being told to pursue STEM? These fields are miserable!

It's true that many STEM jobs are not worth the effort. Particularly those with high barriers to entry. Like why would someone work their tail off to get a 3.9 GPA in an elite Biochem program and then start their career as a primary care physician at age 32 making a paltry $150k/yr with little room for growth? Then have to pay $60k/yr in malpractice insurance and still pay millions in lawsuits because you will inevitably lose a few malpractice cases.

22-yr-olds at modern software companies (not "Tech Rust Belt" companies like Hewlett Packard) start at over $200k TC and have all kinds of sweet benefits like free gym memberships, private shuttles to work, 3 months paid maternity leave, etc. And they don't even need a college degree. GPA? What's that? What kind of prick puts their GPA on their resume?

Both my sons rejected college. Both are pulling down more than $65K plus good insurance this year in a trade, more than I ever made with a college education. No debt, no worries, but too many toys for my taste.

jamin wrote:

It's true that many STEM jobs are not worth the effort. Particularly those with high barriers to entry. Like why would someone work their tail off to get a 3.9 GPA in an elite Biochem program and then start their career as a primary care physician at age 32 making a paltry $150k/yr with little room for growth? Then have to pay $60k/yr in malpractice insurance and still pay millions in lawsuits because you will inevitably lose a few malpractice cases.

22-yr-olds at modern software companies (not "Tech Rust Belt" companies like Hewlett Packard) start at over $200k TC and have all kinds of sweet benefits like free gym memberships, private shuttles to work, 3 months paid maternity leave, etc. And they don't even need a college degree. GPA? What's that? What kind of prick puts their GPA on their resume?

I hate that medicine is lumped into STEM. Can we stop pretending that doctors/nurses/pharmacists do anything remotely similar to scientists/engineers.

While we're at it lets just get rid of this damn acronym that lumps mathematicians and physicists in with software developers. At this point I'd rather have STELBJAM (sci, tech, eng,law, business, journalism, arts, and math) than STEM. Anyone who uses the term STEM probably listened to their guidance counsellor in high school.

And what did that incremental 5k cost you upfront? $400k? Do an IRR for me on that one.

osaka wrote:

Elite STEM jobs are unbeatable - mid to high six figures, stock options, abiity to WFH or remotely, respect of peers and family. I'm talking about your Google/Facebook/Netflix/Amazon/AirBnB senior developer or team lead. Basically, the top 1% of the profession.

Middling STEM jobs suck - 50k-80k depending on location, boring scutwork, no respect, tenuous job security, have to take crap from MBA turds. Sadly, this is what 90% of STEM jobs look like.

This is 100% correct.

This is exactly why, in thread after thread with high school kids, trying to talk them into going to some bullshit, no-name school is terrible advice.

National universities, heavy in tech, or bust. CMU. Stanford. MIT.

John Utah wrote:

And what did that incremental 5k cost you upfront? $400k? Do an IRR for me on that one.

Depends on what you went to school and how frugal you were.

jamin wrote:[/b

22-yr-olds at modern software companies (not "Tech Rust Belt" companies like Hewlett Packard) start at over $200k TC and have all kinds of sweet benefits like free gym memberships, private shuttles to work, 3 months paid maternity leave, etc. And they don't even need a college degree. GPA? What's that? What kind of prick puts their GPA on their resume?

Really, fresh out of college with most likely a computer science bachelors degree and zero real world experience, starting at over $200k?

I have been in IT for 22 years and I regularly get contacted directly by hiring managers at companies to come work for them to do what I do with programming and process automation. I have a pretty good feeling for what kind of experience you need to bring to the table before you can touch the $200k salary level.

I don’t know a single programmer that would want to work for anyone but himself if he was worth $200k at the age of 22. Any kid with $200k worth of experience has already started their own company by the time they were 20 or younger.

In the lab sciences the MBA types are becoming more known for tanking companies than leading them.

Gotta have some IQ on board.

Yaz yaz wrote:

[quote]jamin wrote:[/b

Really, fresh out of college with most likely a computer science bachelors degree and zero real world experience, starting at over $200k?

I have been in IT for 22 years and I regularly get contacted directly by hiring managers at companies to come work for them to do what I do with programming and process automation. I have a pretty good feeling for what kind of experience you need to bring to the table before you can touch the $200k salary level.

I don’t know a single programmer that would want to work for anyone but himself if he was worth $200k at the age of 22. Any kid with $200k worth of experience has already started their own company by the time they were 20 or younger.

$180-200k sounds about right for top companies in Bay Area/Seattle/NYC. Remember this is total comp, including signing bonus and RSUs, which take time to vest. Can personally confirm.

If you work for yourself, you don't get all the nice benefits nor the reliable compensation. And most programmers just want to solve technical problems, they don't want to beg for funding and try to sell stuff.

You first gotta be scum in order to eat other scum.

Yaz yaz wrote:

Really, fresh out of college with most likely a computer science bachelors degree and zero real world experience, starting at over $200k?

I have been in IT for 22 years and I regularly get contacted directly by hiring managers at companies to come work for them to do what I do with programming and process automation. I have a pretty good feeling for what kind of experience you need to bring to the table before you can touch the $200k salary level.

I don’t know a single programmer that would want to work for anyone but himself if he was worth $200k at the age of 22. Any kid with $200k worth of experience has already started their own company by the time they were 20 or younger.

I don't think he/she was referring to IT, but rather high-tech positions like software developer at major employers, and was probably further thinking of compensation figures in tech hubs like the Bay, Seattle or perhaps Boston.

Being in the Bay I know first-hand a few junior software engineers or developers making upwards of $200k total compensation. I'm referring here to kids (aging myself using that term) who've graduated from top schools with perhaps a co-op or internship or two and now working for a major tech employer -- your Googles, Apples and Amazons. Mind you, total comp comprises much more than merely salary; a $200k total comp plan might be composed of $140k base, 12% to 15% merit bonus, $5k sign-on bonus, $15k-equivalent sign-on RSU grant, 10% annual merit-based RSU grant, and 15% ESPP discount. And as mentioned these sorts of companies off a lot of perks beyond just high pay. Not a bad chunk of change for a 24-year-old.

Musing on the cost of these areas, yeah, housing is consequently very expensive commensurate with these high-end pay figures, and saving up a 20% down payment is a high hurdle that can take years to surmount. But housing aside, things here cost about what they do in other parts of the country (at least, they're not as disproportionately more expensive) and so in my experience the high cost of living is more than offset by a high salary if you can garner one. Unfortunately though other industries here don't, generally speaking, offer comparable pay and these people remain priced out of homeownership and either continue to be renters against their desire or choose to leave the area to find a market they can afford. You can call that gentrification perhaps, or homogenization.

SF engineer wrote:

$180-200k sounds about right for top companies in Bay Area/Seattle/NYC. Remember this is total comp, including signing bonus and RSUs, which take time to vest. Can personally confirm.

If you work for yourself, you don't get all the nice benefits nor the reliable compensation. And most programmers just want to solve technical problems, they don't want to beg for funding and try to sell stuff.

I didn't see your reply until I posted mine.

Very much agreed, with this coming from someone working in the opposite end of the Bay in what's now considered an old-line segment of tech.

The Chad MBA vs. the virgin STEM dorks

antiSTEMitic wrote:

Engineering- crappy money. Sit in a cubicle. MBAs tell you what to do. It’s not “creative”.

Medicine- protocol driven. Very little thinking. Customer service is more important than outcomes. MHAs tell you what to do.

Lab sciences- are you serious? Gulag - esque. So bad.

Why not pursue thoughtful things? STEM is a grind in which there is very little respect for it’s technicians. The world treats their IPhones better thank they treat iPhone engineers.

Hey, an actual high schooler here, one with the idea to pursue STEM. The actual downfalls of these careers you talk about result from: 1) being too comfortable with your current position to do anything about it because all you are is average, and 2) not finding any purpose in your work. Both of those things will make you nothing but a passing check-to-check grinder in any field, whether or not it’s STEM or otherwise.

Also, to all the people who say a degree is worthless, I agree with you, but that is the way of the current system. As long as companies will chuck your resume in the garbage without college experience, we high school students have to grind in college for another four years to just get a chance at getting a real job, not some pointless retail job.

The reason why we are all getting college degrees is not that we are just blindly following the advice of adults, although there is some of that, but because of a system of forced signaling created by *ahem* adults. Outside of trades, construction, and mainly entrepreneurship, there is little a high school student has for options for growth without higher education in the United States. And not that many people want to work with their hands, and somebody has to work for the entrepreneurs!

So before your bash high school students for going with flow, understand why the current is flowing that way.

Well said!

SF engineer wrote:

$180-200k sounds about right for top companies in Bay Area/Seattle/NYC. Remember this is total comp, including signing bonus and RSUs, which take time to vest. Can personally confirm.

Yes, but $200k in those cities is equivalent to $30k everywhere else. (kidding)

antiSTEMitic wrote:

Engineering- crappy money. Sit in a cubicle. MBAs tell you what to do. It’s not “creative”.

Medicine- protocol driven. Very little thinking. Customer service is more important than outcomes. MHAs tell you what to do.

Lab sciences- are you serious? Gulag - esque. So bad.

Why not pursue thoughtful things? STEM is a grind in which there is very little respect for it’s technicians. The world treats their IPhones better thank they treat iPhone engineers.

Why? Because it is the American way to pursue money at the cost of human happiness.

antiSTEMitic wrote:

Medicine- protocol driven. Very little thinking. Customer service is more important than outcomes. MHAs tell you what to do.

Wrong. Medicine/doctors make 3x Engineers, more respect, better hours. BUT Medicine is not part of STEM!

Agree with everything else. STEM jobs are a total grind, low respect, relatively low pay (compared to Dentists and Doctors). When you're 50, you suffer age discrimination. You're a wage slave cubicle dweller. Not a good career choice. Go into finance or medicine.

The M is for Math BTW.

YMMV wrote:

And hats off to the OP too, great post (from a former STEM)

What'd you move to? Asking as a current miserable STEM person. Are there support groups for STEM sufferers that bought into this crap? Should've gone into health care.