Daniels says 30-50 minutes of Britten threshold is appropriate, sometimes 60 for elites.
Magness says 30-35 minutes, and 40 for elites.
Pretty big discrepancy. Thoughts?
Daniels says 30-50 minutes of Britten threshold is appropriate, sometimes 60 for elites.
Magness says 30-35 minutes, and 40 for elites.
Pretty big discrepancy. Thoughts?
Magness coaches the 211th best NCAA xc team. I do not care what he thinks
Lol... wrote:
Magness coaches the 211th best NCAA xc team. I do not care what he thinks
Daniels coached a DIII women's team
Both Daniels and Magness have coached numerous women who run a faster pace for the marathon than you likely do for 5k.
So??? wrote:
Lol... wrote:
Magness coaches the 211th best NCAA xc team. I do not care what he thinks
Daniels coached a DIII women's team
+1
I think and important thing to note here is how they both define threshold.
That leads me to my question -- how do they each define threshold? And how does tinman define it?
What about tempo? How don't hey define tempo?
As for lenght and/or prolonging a threshold run...
...isn't the only important rule really "never waste good legs"? ;-)
wkqdl wrote:
I think and important thing to note here is how they both define threshold.
That leads me to my question -- how do they each define threshold? And how does tinman define it?
Daniels... defines "threshold" training
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=dxJVtPT6rHoI actually think threshold is one of the few things most people agree on. I do know Magness emphasizes a feeling, as does JD, but it works out to be roughly 1 hour race pace.
I know Daniels usually caps reps at 2 miles, where Magness emphasizes larger periods with addition to some shorter periods a touch faster.
For example, Daniels might go 3 x 2 miles, 4 x 2 miles, etc. Magness is more likely go to 4 miles, short rest, 2 miles a bit faster.
In the 3rd edition, Daniels advocates for threshold work for up to 20 minutes, with most runners only being able to handle a single 20-minute bout in training, but leaving the option open for additional 20 minute reps if the runner is up to the task (for up to 60min total). He also uses "cruise intervals" (same thing, shorter time, multiple reps).
In his 5k-10k plan, for instance, he has plenty of 1mi and 2mi reps - e.g. in Phase II he progresses over the weeks from 2x1T to 4x1T, but he also throws in some single-rep workouts of 3mi (at least for the 40-50mpw plan). Later in the plan he has workouts like 1T + 2T + 1T or something. I think I've seen 4mi T-pace runs elsewhere in the book, but I could be wrong.
Not that it matters too much, but as a slower hobby jogger I find 3T to be a good bit harder than 3 x 1T (or even 4 x 1T). T-pace is no joke for me at 25s/mi slower than my 5k pace - but I also have a pretty weak aerobic base as a new wannabe distance runner with ball-sports background. But T-pace does feel spot-on physiologically - if I start going a few seconds per mile faster, it gets disproportionately difficult, and if I back off a bit, I'm good. I tend to always go a little faster than planned, so its tough for me on longer reps.
Mikey A wrote:
In the 3rd edition, Daniels advocates for threshold work for up to 20 minutes, with most runners only being able to handle a single 20-minute bout in training, but leaving the option open for additional 20 minute reps if the runner is up to the task (for up to 60min total). He also uses "cruise intervals" (same thing, shorter time, multiple reps).
This is an important distinction to make with respect to the OP's inquiry...
You're referencing the training aspect, but the "up to 60 minutes" reference is specifically addressing racing efforts... "elite athletes with the proper training could race at their threshold for up to an hour." That said, he's correctly pointing out that in training there's no benefit to (diminishing returns) going beyond 20 minutes at threshold pace.
ghost_coach wrote:
"elite athletes with the proper training could race at their threshold for up to an hour." That said, he's correctly pointing out that in training there's no benefit to (diminishing returns) going beyond 20 minutes at threshold pace.
Anyone with the correct training can race at one hour race pace for one hour.
The only 'threshold' that actually exists for measurable purpoes is the ventilatory threshold and even then you don't suddenly get out of breath if you cross that point.
This supposed 'lactate turnpoint' is just another piece of nonsense that people like to waffle on about, as though it was actually possible to locate an inflection point on an exponential curve.
Magness has some good rants on his website. When he loses that ability to rant, then I will lose interest in reading what he has to say.
Tempo runs should always be done on feel and you need a good warm up most days. That means a few miles building up to where you can run comfortably fast, because tempo runs should be just that, comfortably fast.
If there is no benefit beyond going at 20 minutes, why does he have 8 miles of cruise intervals in his program? If 20 minutes was the magic number, he would just prescribe 20 minute tempos every week for threshold, correct?
beware of the dogma wrote:
Anyone with the correct training can race at one hour race pace for one hour.
And even with absolutely incorrect training. Race pace will only be slower then.
If we asked JD who burns the most calories in a one hour race, Joe Hobbyjogger who does 13km or Joe Elite who does 21. Assuming they are the same size and have the same absolute VO2 max?
What would he say?
I have a collection of peer reviewed papers by Daniels. I’m having trouble finding lab work performed by Magness. Anyone have a pubmed/orcid link for him?
How many peer reviewed articles are out there in PubMed that we can read by Alberto Salazar?
Or Renato Canova or Brother Colm O'Connell?
Magness is a philopher and yes he has been accused of over thinking it in the past, but at least he is thinking and not just repeating what other people say.
leg speed velociraptor wrote:
Or Renato Canova or Brother Colm O'Connell?
Magness is a philopher and yes he has been accused of over thinking it in the past, but at least he is thinking and not just repeating what other people say.
Got to agree with that one.