Training too hard? Tempo too fast?

YMMV wrote:

I've coached a few people to breakthroughs at this level. Your 10K is plenty fast, and apparently you are able to handle mileage. The glaring omissions I see are:

1) Long run progressing to at least 22 miles, at a steady pace with the last 3-4 at MP. 24-26 miles would be better, bit don't blow your wad trying to do too much.

2) MP runs starting at 8-9 miles and building up to 14-16. Also sprinkle in 6:30-pace throughout the week. You want 6:30 pace to feel smooth and somewhat effortless.

To achieve these training goals, you will likely need to reduce your mileage a bit. 60-70 miles/week is plenty adequate for sub-2:50. You need more miles at goal/date pace and to pace well in the race (choose a good course with good competition as well, of course. You might need some tweaks on the scheduling and on nutrition (e.g. learn to burn fat, running longer runs fasted).

Atomic Party Chair wrote:

What are your workouts? You mentioned tempos. Are you doing speed intervals? Any hill repeats?

As has been suggested by others, doing longer tempo runs would be beneficial. No need to go longer than 12-14 miles at marathon pace as then you're getting close to overdoing it, but being able to hold your marathon pace for that distance and have it feel comfortably hard is important.

Doing some longer runs would probably also be helpful. Running for 3-3.5 hours a couple of times is beneficial for your body to adapt to the repetitious nature of the marathon.

There is nothing wrong with the pace of your easy runs. It's almost impossible to run too slowly. That said, it is important to recognize the difference between a recovery run and an easy run. Recovery is important after a workout* and doing a recovery run provides active recovery at the same time as gaining smaller aerobic gains. An easy run is faster (the fastest you can run and still have it be easy) and provides more aerobic gains. Being able to run by feel for these is important because some days 9 minute pace for a recovery run might be all you have, whereas other days you might be 8-8:30. It depends on how the workout impacted you (e.g., if you're naturally better at short speed, those workouts might not take as much out of you as workouts that focus on longer speed endurance) and how the rest of life is impacting you as well. Similarly, an easy run might be 7:30 pace one day and 8:15 another day. It's all about discerning the effort so you are balancing recovery with not under or overdoing it.

*As someone else stated, running a long run the day after a tempo can be helpful for teaching the body and mind to run in a pre-fatigued state.

The only other piece of advice I feel I can provide with the given information is not to base your training on your intended goal pace, but on your current fitness. If you base it on what you want to do, it's likely you'll be pushing too hard in workouts. If you base it on your current fitness, you will continue to progress because your body can recover from the workouts. As you get stronger, you'll get faster. With this in mind, for your next marathon, have a good understand of your current fitness and start at that pace rather than the pace of the time you want to run. You can always speed up if you started too slowly and finish strong, but if you start out too fast, you will always find a wall.

Good luck!

blatter wrote:

Are yo saying you do your 20 mile runs by running 10 miles at 8-9 minutes pace, then run the final 10 at 6:25 pace?

If so, why? When you finally run 20 miles at 6:30 you fall apart, but you've never run even 15-18 miles at 6:30-6:45 pace.

You don't really need tempos or repeats to run a good marathon. You need more long runs. 6:30 is not that fast if you can run a 36:15 10k. You should be able to do all your long runs at 6:30-7:00 pace if you expect to run a marathon at 6:30 pace. If you can run a 20 mile training run at 6:45, you won't be able to run a marathon at 6:30 (or faster pace).

I'd probably do 2 long runs a week. A 18-22 milers on Sunday at 6:45-7:00 pace, and a 12-14 mile at 6:30 to 6:45. You could do a 6 mile tempo at 6:20 pace for a 3rd work out, followed by some shorter stuff - 8 x 200 or some sprints.

You might also want to do a few 20 mile runs at 6:30 2 or 3 times (depending on how long your lead up is).

mydanielwei168 wrote:

blatter wrote:

Are yo saying you do your 20 mile runs by running 10 miles at 8-9 minutes pace, then run the final 10 at 6:25 pace?

If so, why? When you finally run 20 miles at 6:30 you fall apart, but you've never run even 15-18 miles at 6:30-6:45 pace.

You don't really need tempos or repeats to run a good marathon. You need more long runs. 6:30 is not that fast if you can run a 36:15 10k. You should be able to do all your long runs at 6:30-7:00 pace if you expect to run a marathon at 6:30 pace. If you can run a 20 mile training run at 6:45, you won't be able to run a marathon at 6:30 (or faster pace).

I'd probably do 2 long runs a week. A 18-22 milers on Sunday at 6:45-7:00 pace, and a 12-14 mile at 6:30 to 6:45. You could do a 6 mile tempo at 6:20 pace for a 3rd work out, followed by some shorter stuff - 8 x 200 or some sprints.

You might also want to do a few 20 mile runs at 6:30 2 or 3 times (depending on how long your lead up is).

Great point!

I am keep thinking about your comment here...

Should I do :

Tuesday - MP 12-14 (6:30)

Friday - tempo 6 miles (6:15)

Saturday - 18 - 22 miles (6:45-7:00)

And all easy run in between

Are the above too hard on the body?

Should I still do interval , or tempo like 2-5 mile repeats???

Thanks again!!!

mydanielwei168 wrote:

Atomic Party Chair wrote:

What are your workouts? You mentioned tempos. Are you doing speed intervals? Any hill repeats?

As has been suggested by others, doing longer tempo runs would be beneficial. No need to go longer than 12-14 miles at marathon pace as then you're getting close to overdoing it, but being able to hold your marathon pace for that distance and have it feel comfortably hard is important.

Doing some longer runs would probably also be helpful. Running for 3-3.5 hours a couple of times is beneficial for your body to adapt to the repetitious nature of the marathon.

There is nothing wrong with the pace of your easy runs. It's almost impossible to run too slowly. That said, it is important to recognize the difference between a recovery run and an easy run. Recovery is important after a workout* and doing a recovery run provides active recovery at the same time as gaining smaller aerobic gains. An easy run is faster (the fastest you can run and still have it be easy) and provides more aerobic gains. Being able to run by feel for these is important because some days 9 minute pace for a recovery run might be all you have, whereas other days you might be 8-8:30. It depends on how the workout impacted you (e.g., if you're naturally better at short speed, those workouts might not take as much out of you as workouts that focus on longer speed endurance) and how the rest of life is impacting you as well. Similarly, an easy run might be 7:30 pace one day and 8:15 another day. It's all about discerning the effort so you are balancing recovery with not under or overdoing it.

*As someone else stated, running a long run the day after a tempo can be helpful for teaching the body and mind to run in a pre-fatigued state.

The only other piece of advice I feel I can provide with the given information is not to base your training on your intended goal pace, but on your current fitness. If you base it on what you want to do, it's likely you'll be pushing too hard in workouts. If you base it on your current fitness, you will continue to progress because your body can recover from the workouts. As you get stronger, you'll get faster. With this in mind, for your next marathon, have a good understand of your current fitness and start at that pace rather than the pace of the time you want to run. You can always speed up if you started too slowly and finish strong, but if you start out too fast, you will always find a wall.

Good luck!

OMG ! Your comment is the best! The last paragraph gave me a goosebumps! Thank you so much !

You and other people made a great point, that is running a long run the day after tempo , but here is my question:

How long and how hard the tempo should be on the tempo run which will be the day prior to long run?

Thanks again!!!