Training too hard? Tempo too fast?

Run the easy days closer to 7:00

HobbyJogging.com wrote:

mydanielwei168 wrote:

Thanks! Most training week I only do two “hard workouts” and have two “easy days (8-9 pace)” in between those faster efforts .

What should my tempo run pace be if I want to run a 1:19 half marathon?

Thanks again!

So you average around 20-22 miles per run? 80-90 mpw on 4 runs?

Most training week I only do two “hard workouts” and have two “easy days (8-9 pace)” in between those faster efforts .

Two “hard workouts” a week, rest all easy run. Example below:

1. Workout

2.easy

3.easy

4.Workout

5.easy

6.easy

7.Workout

1. easy

2.easy

3.Workout

And so on...

I run 7 days a week , some time I break two easy runs in one day to get to 80-95 miles per week.

I've coached a few people to breakthroughs at this level. Your 10K is plenty fast, and apparently you are able to handle mileage. The glaring omissions I see are:

1) Long run progressing to at least 22 miles, at a steady pace with the last 3-4 at MP. 24-26 miles would be better, bit don't blow your wad trying to do too much.

2) MP runs starting at 8-9 miles and building up to 14-16. Also sprinkle in 6:30-pace throughout the week. You want 6:30 pace to feel smooth and somewhat effortless.

To achieve these training goals, you will likely need to reduce your mileage a bit. 60-70 miles/week is plenty adequate for sub-2:50. You need more miles at goal/date pace and to pace well in the race (choose a good course with good competition as well, of course. You might need some tweaks on the scheduling and on nutrition (e.g. learn to burn fat, running longer runs fasted).

Race often if you can. First half at your PB pace if you think you can improve on it. Second half based in feeling. You will improve.

Try longer tempos with fueling. Also try long runs with more stuff with fueling. It seems like your training is more ideal for a 10,000m - half marathon runner than a marathoner. You don't need a lot of fast intervals but you do need plenty of longer efforts at or a bit faster than goal race pace.

Lastly you can try doing long runs on pre fatigued legs. So you could do your tempo on Saturday, and then on Sunday do 20-22 miles on those legs. It might help you develop resistance to fatigue. Honestly there are a lot of things you could try. But I would say being comfortable going the distance, but also being able to hold race pace for longer and longer periods of time is what needs developed. Stress denotes adaptation.

Velocibuddha wrote:

I am about the same speed as you and I have the same problem holding a “good” marathon pace.

I think this is due to three limitations:

1) Too slow-

My tempo pace is pretty good 6:00 (for less than 10 miles).

BUT - I cannot break 5:15 for a mile.

2) I am too heavy (6ft 1 inch- 170lbs).

3) Bad form

In short-

I am not THAT heavy.

I am not THAT slow.

My form is not THAT bad

I am in pretty good shape.

But after 20 miles fitness does not compensate for everything else.

Heavy + Slow + Bad Form + Fit = is OK for 800m, 10k, 13.1, Triathlon running

Heavy + Slow + Bad Form + Fit = is NOT ok for 1 mike, 2 miles, 5 k or a marathon:

I have always theorized that was my problem during my prime. Except that I have good form but raced competitive in the 800 and half-marathon but always struggled mile-5k.

Steady FTW wrote:

[quote]Partridge wrote:

8-9 min mile pace is quite slow.

+2

Yes you want easy to be easy and the hard to be hard. But there is easy and too easy. If it is too easy you aren't providing enough stress to have the body adapt. The same Daniels calculator you used to get an estimate of your marathon time also says your Easy Runs should be 07:17 - 07:44

Velocibuddha wrote:

I am about the same speed as you and I have the same problem holding a “good” marathon pace.

I think this is due to three limitations:

1) Too slow-

My tempo pace is pretty good 6:00 (for less than 10 miles).

BUT - I cannot break 5:15 for a mile.

2) I am too heavy (6ft 1 inch- 170lbs).

3) Bad form

In short-

I am not THAT heavy.

I am not THAT slow.

My form is not THAT bad

I am in pretty good shape.

But after 20 miles fitness does not compensate for everything else.

Heavy + Slow + Bad Form + Fit = is OK for 800m, 10k, 13.1, Triathlon running

Heavy + Slow + Bad Form + Fit = is NOT ok for 1 mike, 2 miles, 5 k or a marathon:

basically, you just listed a bunch of reason why you simply aren't that physically talented. That is truly what you're up against.

me:

6'-1"

165 lbs

400m - sub 49 split

800m - 1:51

mile - 4:07

5k - 14:52

HM - 1:09:50

Marathon - 2:31

I've only ever done 60 mpw max. To run 2:31 i needed 4 runs between 20-23 miles in the 12 weeks leading up to the race. 50-60 mpw in 6 days. 1 day completely off per week minimum (usually day after long run) and generally trained for marathon by targeting a half marathon about 6 weeks before marathon race. For me, speed endurance is what makes those last 5 miles of a marathon possible. That and choosing the correct goal marathon pace ;)

-naturally fast

-body breaks down on high mileage

-best races come after 2-3 years of consistent injury free training

-not too aerobically focused during my running career

What are your workouts? You mentioned tempos. Are you doing speed intervals? Any hill repeats?

As has been suggested by others, doing longer tempo runs would be beneficial. No need to go longer than 12-14 miles at marathon pace as then you're getting close to overdoing it, but being able to hold your marathon pace for that distance and have it feel comfortably hard is important.

Doing some longer runs would probably also be helpful. Running for 3-3.5 hours a couple of times is beneficial for your body to adapt to the repetitious nature of the marathon.

There is nothing wrong with the pace of your easy runs. It's almost impossible to run too slowly. That said, it is important to recognize the difference between a recovery run and an easy run. Recovery is important after a workout* and doing a recovery run provides active recovery at the same time as gaining smaller aerobic gains. An easy run is faster (the fastest you can run and still have it be easy) and provides more aerobic gains. Being able to run by feel for these is important because some days 9 minute pace for a recovery run might be all you have, whereas other days you might be 8-8:30. It depends on how the workout impacted you (e.g., if you're naturally better at short speed, those workouts might not take as much out of you as workouts that focus on longer speed endurance) and how the rest of life is impacting you as well. Similarly, an easy run might be 7:30 pace one day and 8:15 another day. It's all about discerning the effort so you are balancing recovery with not under or overdoing it.

*As someone else stated, running a long run the day after a tempo can be helpful for teaching the body and mind to run in a pre-fatigued state.

The only other piece of advice I feel I can provide with the given information is not to base your training on your intended goal pace, but on your current fitness. If you base it on what you want to do, it's likely you'll be pushing too hard in workouts. If you base it on your current fitness, you will continue to progress because your body can recover from the workouts. As you get stronger, you'll get faster. With this in mind, for your next marathon, have a good understand of your current fitness and start at that pace rather than the pace of the time you want to run. You can always speed up if you started too slowly and finish strong, but if you start out too fast, you will always find a wall.

Good luck!

1) 2 years of running is not that long. I hit most of my PR's after 5 to 6 years of running, however, I was doing less mileage so building endurance probably took longer. Overall, I would not make drastic changes to your plan, just some minor ones.

2) I would not try for a sub 2:50 full until you can run a sub 1:20 half.

3) Everyone has their best distance. Some people are just not cut out for the marathon, myself included. My marathon times never came close to what my 5K or 10K times would predict. Even my half marathon times predicted a much faster marathon.

Tempo pace should be determined based on current fitness, not goal fitness.

Top 6 tempo pace runners all time - american:

1. Galen Rupp

2. Mark Nenow

3. Bruce Bickford

4. Ben True

5. Bernard Lagat

6. Khalid Khannouchi

Pretty good advice from YMMV.

Personally I think running easy days easy is fine. But your workouts are really hard and your long days are hard and your easy days are really easy, nothing in between.

What if you took an 'easy' day every week and run a steady 10-12 at 6:30ish pace (don't get too hung up on the exact pace, just how it feels)? Your heart rate and perceived effort should be rock-steady. It will feel easy, like you could keep going another 5-10 miles. And maybe every third workout day could be something similar, too. I had great success with that as a staple in my marathon training, and with fewer hard workout days.

mydanielwei168 wrote:

I run my easy run (8-9 min pace) the next two days after the quality workout. I thought I need to make my easy day easy and hard day hard? The easy day should be just recovery from the quality section right? I thought there are a lot of benefits for running easy?

I am afraid to get hurt if I run every easy run to the pace around 7:30..

I mean I usually run in the morning right after bed for 8-10 miles, I don’t think I can do 7:30 at start..

Please help. Sometime I think about “junk mile” question too.

Thanks!

For somewhat with your weekly mileage and time goals, 9-min pace is fine if you've just been shot in the leg by your neighbor for doing some interval work with his wife, but otherwise, I mean, cmon. Some people will say it doesn't matter, easy is easy. But that approach is not working for you. 8-9 min/mile should feel like walking....if it doesn't, or if youre in such discomfort it's all you can handle, then very likely you're running way too hard/racing on your hard days. Somewhere your balance is off.

Ignore these yokels who are telling you to run your easy days faster. That's literally the LAST place I'd start in terms of tweaking things. For what it's worth, I run similar mileage as you do and ran 1:16-low in my last half marathon, and most of my easy runs are in the 8-8:30 range. If I'm feeling particularly good that day, it'll be sub-8:00, but that's not the norm. Some good advice from others so I won't repeat it. In general, though, if anything I think you're training too hard.

mydanielwei168 wrote:

I run my easy run (8-9 min pace) the next two days after the quality workout. I thought I need to make my easy day easy and hard day hard? The easy day should be just recovery from the quality section right? I thought there are a lot of benefits for running easy?

I am afraid to get hurt if I run every easy run to the pace around 7:30..

I mean I usually run in the morning right after bed for 8-10 miles, I don’t think I can do 7:30 at start..

Please help. Sometime I think about “junk mile” question too.

Thanks!

I agree with others who say that your easy run pace is just fine. Don't worry about those days. Your mileage also looks just fine. Your mile repeats and 10K time show that you have the speed to run 2:50.

What is your height and weight? I didn't see it anywhere above. If you're on the heavy side, you might be fine hitting the right workouts, but unable to run the full distance at that pace due to weight.

Also, how are your tapers? Are you fully rested on race day? If you can run 20 with the last 10 at 6:25, you should be very close to 2:50.

Why are your mile tempo repeats so fast? You are training your LT, increasing the pace does not help train this and simply has you working too hard. For 2:50, a LT pace of 6:00 should get it done. As you can do 2 mile reps at 5:55 already, focus on nailing this pace.

w1: 6x1 mile at 5:55 --> 8x1

w2: 3x2 mile at 5:55 --> 4x2

w3: 2x3 mile at 5:55 --> 3x3 (you are ready when you can do this w/o destroying yourself).

The last rep should not be fun, but you should never be leaving a part of yourself behind.

Start at 6:05 if you need with a 3 week cycle minimum each time to advance. When you can do 5:55 for all three workouts (if not, repeat the 3 week cycle), add extra repeats as indicated, do not increase the speed. Recovery should be 60s per mile. Start at 90s and you'll be at 60s after a few weeks.

Mix up your long run. Add in 2-4 miles late at faster than marathon pace, just do a long easy run of 24 miles, do a progression long run or a long run at a 7:00 intermediate pace. That you can do 20 with 10 at MP says you have all the basic ingredients. Stick with it and you'll do it.

8-9 min/mile for easy runs is fine for someone 2 years into running. i know 60 min half guys who happily do 8-9 mpm for easy recovery runs (doubles, easy after race etc). easy should feel easy, dont worry about pace.

great durability to hit 85-90 mpw at only 2 years into running.

2 years isn't a long time. distance running takes a long time. haile took 19 yrs to set 5k/10k WRs and another 10 yrs after that to set marathon WR. kipchoge's been at it for a similar amount of time.

keep doing same workouts at same pace for 6 months and you'll get faster. just time is what you need.

you can run ~3hrs for marathon now. i'd suggest, sense you seem to be able to handle it, 10 to 15 mile runs (or last 10 of 22milers) at 3hr pace (6:50 to 6:55) for several months and build endurance from that end. mix that with shorter work at (slighty faster, 1 - 2 sec per milr) reps at 10k and 1/2 mara and you'll do well.

look up old hadd/cabral threads on here. also old posts by tinman

Are yo saying you do your 20 mile runs by running 10 miles at 8-9 minutes pace, then run the final 10 at 6:25 pace?

If so, why? When you finally run 20 miles at 6:30 you fall apart, but you've never run even 15-18 miles at 6:30-6:45 pace.

You don't really need tempos or repeats to run a good marathon. You need more long runs. 6:30 is not that fast if you can run a 36:15 10k. You should be able to do all your long runs at 6:30-7:00 pace if you expect to run a marathon at 6:30 pace. If you can run a 20 mile training run at 6:45, you won't be able to run a marathon at 6:30 (or faster pace).

I'd probably do 2 long runs a week. A 18-22 milers on Sunday at 6:45-7:00 pace, and a 12-14 mile at 6:30 to 6:45. You could do a 6 mile tempo at 6:20 pace for a 3rd work out, followed by some shorter stuff - 8 x 200 or some sprints.

You might also want to do a few 20 mile runs at 6:30 2 or 3 times (depending on how long your lead up is).

Everyone's different but I'd put some serious consideration into putting in 7-8 mile midweek "hill funs" with ~ 1,000 feet of incline.

Just by pure luck a couple of years ago I was training for a marathon and, for the first time for me, a hill race which was going to be 3 weeks after the marathon. I did my usual Sunday long runs on the flat and a midweek run as described above. This was without any crazy mileage either, maybe ~ 40 miles a week tops.

Anyway, without any real considered effort or goal target I took my marathon pr from 2:59 down to 2:49. Then a few weeks after the hill run I ran a half in 1:18, again knocking a big chunk off my pr. Put the whole thing down to the hill runs...