Sub-elite guys/gals: Do you have a training plan? A coach?

Very structured plan

But I tend to be a control freak about training...:)

Arthur Lydiard’s book is closet I have to a coach...his YouTube vids too.

---

3km to 26.2 wrote:

Very structured plan

But I tend to be a control freak about training...:)

Arthur Lydiard’s book is closet I have to a coach...his YouTube vids too.

---

You aren't required to have a plan. You are required to know your body. However, if I were you, I'd write a plan. Keep it very simple. Do what you are doing, but add to it. Then, just use it as a set of guidelines instead of a schedule. You are allowed to move things around on a day to day basis. It's the training block as a whole that matters, not the individual micro details of each workout.

My guess is that while you don't have a structured plan, you were probably a good college runner and have some inherent sense of what you need at any given time and probably have followed some sort of hazy, not-quite-spoken-out-loud plan.

But 2:23 is going to be a stretch for you based on the combination of your half time and your volume, so you are going to need to do something different. Obviously, increasing your training volume will need to be a part of that, and that alone may get you into the ballpark with respect to your intermediate goal. If, however, you are going to take a real crack at 2:18, I think you are going to need to come closer to maximizing your potential, and maximizing your potential means both increasing your volume and squeezing the most out of each mile that you elect to run.

Personally, I lay out my entire training cycle before I start in on my training plan - usually about 18 weeks out from race day. Now, that plan changes as my training progresses, but I really like to have everything laid out in advance as a guideline. You don't need to be quite that structured, but you should have a pretty good idea as to how you want to attack the training cycle and what each phase of the cycle should look like.

For me, that means a block of work at 5k pace out before I get to the heart of my training cycle during the last 12 weeks. I don't necessarily need to lay out every workout for every day during that vo2max phase, but I do know that from 18 weeks out until 12 weeks out, some sort of vo2max workout will be the primary emphasis each week. Similarly, I know that the last 12 weeks will be a heavy emphasis on lactate threshold pace, with the only variation during those 12 weeks being races and an occasional long effort at goal marathon effort. Does it matter if the threshold work is 7 x 1 mile or 3 x 2 miles or 3 miles/2 miles/1 mile? Maybe a little (because if you structure those in the right order, you can safely build up to a higher total volume at LT pace than you might think), but at least focusing on what the overarching goal of the then-current phase will get you pretty far along toward your goals.

If you don't have a good sense of how you would like to set up a training cycle, or what the goals of the phases should be, then you should consider hiring a coach or at least buying some of the more well regarded books out there. I have based my training cycles on the principles laid out in Daniels Running Formula (2nd edition), and I have used those principles to design training plans for male athletes who have run 1:04 for the half and 2:18 for the full and a female athlete who ran 2:45 for the full. So I can tell you that those principles are solid and sound; but there are certainly other approaches that will work as well.

Really good advice above from Smoove.

I echo laying out the different blocks. I.e. this 4 weeks is building the LR and mid week LR and doing strides or short fartleks. This next one is introducing X phase of work. Block after that introduce Y work. etc.

I've found that balancing training with a schedule I get way too picky if I lay it all out and stick to it, so just knowing what general things I should be doing in a block is how I like to go. As opposed to say tuesday always is a tempo, no matter how hard I hit the sunday LR.

Recently did a 2:28 with a 19 minute PR and more to give. So I am not sub-elite, but more in your boat.

I can't see you getting down to low 2:20s without increasing your milage substantially. The advice about faster running is solid. Getting 5:20 to feel easy is the goal. Though with a 67:30 (5:09) I am very surprised you only ran a 2:30 full. You are likely much more talented than me and are closer than you think if that 67:30 is recent and true.

For comparison sake- I am setting up my schedule into blocks as well. My plan for this spring marathon is going to be less structured than for fall. 1) Speed work until the tracks are covered with snow. 2) Keep building my base for ~6 weeks but never forgetting to throw in some fast miles 3) Lactate threshold 4) Marathon prep (mid-longs runs at MP or long ending at MP) while doing some workouts at LT and VO2Max.

If you have big plans for the future, I recommend you start increasing your volume now. I don't think many people can go from 40-60 to 100-110 over the course of a year without injury.

Have fun, and good luck!

Your goals parallel mine, and keeping lockstep with the thread, I have a very structured plan. My current block started at the beginning of August to build up to a December marathon where I'm looking to run 2:23. The training block consists of two phases- August/September for interval training(5-8xMile, 6-15x1000, 4-6x1.5 Mile, 4x2Mile), the second phase in October/November shifts into principally into goal-paced workouts(6-10 mile tempo runs at 5:18-5:27 pace, 90:00 tempo, 2-3x5 mile tempo).

Workouts aside, 50-60 MPW won't get the job done. I'll assume you're considerably younger(I'm 37), and maybe never ran the volume necessary to be competitive in the marathon. Anecdotally, I'll offer that I took my mileage from a peak of 83 miles a year ago to 115 this year, and have set PRs at every distance from 15K to the marathon.

Best of luck, maybe we'll toe the line together on 2/29/2020.

Personally, I have done 9 months ahead as the longest plan to race.

But and a big big but is I ran xc track indoors and out in hs and college where we raced 2 times a week...in that case it was the coaches resp and I just did 10 weeksof base training every summer then two months of intervals and anaerobic training to peak for 2 weeks
Then couple weeks of easy running and right into indoor season then couple weeks easy running and outdoors...it was a lot

Caveat if you look at lydiards methods he says do approx for as long as possible weeks of base building then it’s like 4-6 weeks of hill work and increasing intensity then 4. Weeks anaerobic training then start looking for races...and 3-4 weeks of sharpening...peak and race

If you do it right your endurance will be unreal

It works I have done it up to 105 -110 mpw

It's simple, no?

Each week:
- 100-140 miles a week (depending on what your body can handle without injury)
- Long Run (from 14-24 miles progress up to a few weeks before your goal)
- Tempo session (From Tempo pace to Marathon pace depending on distance / rest) (Up to 16 miles at MP, but also could look like 2*20 mins @ Tempo pace or 15*1k w/1' rest @ Tempo)
- On the lighter weeks toss in a second workout or fartlek

* Find a good race
* Hope weather is good.

I'm also a sub-elite (1:05 1/2 in October) training for a spring marathon.

Am I on the right track here or do I need a coach too?

Thanks to everyone - I’ve been in class, but will give this more of a thorough read-through when it’s over (or I’m in a more boring course).

Smoove - you’re right that I’m a post-collegiate. 26 years old. College PRs of 14:50/30:20. In college I ran big miles - pretty consistently 100+. Worked okay, but I’ve really been having more fun off the low-mileage work. I don’t think I want to get back into triple digits, especially with school and work. Hoping to bump to 70-80 and keep it there... sound feasible?

As to workout, my post-collegiate arsenal is basic: mile repeats and tempos. Basically all I do nowadays.

I write my own training plan, but I have the benefit of being friends with a number of excellent coaches that I often bounce ideas off. I have a set structure that I stick to (longer aerobic w/o on wednesday, faster vo2 type work (sometimes with legit speed) on friday, long run on Sunday) with easy aerobic runs on the other days. If I was a pro athlete and had all the time/resources, I'd do something a bit different, but this schedule works well with work and allows me to get into the weight room after my hard sessions which is a preference of mine.

As for the timeline, I have every mile/workout/core exercise outlined for the next 8 weeks leading up to a race I'm doing on Jan 1st. For me, I need things to be very specific if I'm going to accomplish them well. But I've also had some great coaches in my HS/collegiate days and have a pretty good idea what works for me. After the 6-8 week period, I have an outline of what I want to do leading up to my goal race, a half in february, but I wont write out that training in detail until after Jan 1st.

I find that I can commit very well to a 6-8 week program but I start either losing faith in it or wanting to try new things after that. I get very experimental and like to try new things (drills, workouts, etc.) a lot but I also know I need 6-8 weeks to adapt to a stimulus. I also like to be flexible with mileage as Ive found that I rarely adapt to things as quickly as I would like/plan to, so assessing every 6-8 weeks is usually helpful to me to get a realistic perspective on my fitness. I also try to race every 6-8 weeks fr the same reason, although most of them are just crappy 5k's or something cheap and local just to get the legs moving and see where I'm at.

That being said, of course, that is just what works for me. I have another buddy that doesnt plan a single run/workout and just does whatever he feels like that day when he wakes up. HE's still super fit. If I did that I probably would end up finishing more beers than miles, so it depends heavily on what works for you.

I peaked out in my most recent training cycle at about 80 miles, but we are all very different. I was always a low volume guy because I came to the sport late and also was historically injury prone. So running between 80-100 for my peaks in my 4 marathon cycles seemed like more than enough given that I set my PRs at the traditional track distances at 50-60 mpw.

But I think my athletic profile (naturally high vo2max, very responsive to training initially before flattening out, incapable of maintaining heavy volume over time without injury) lends itself to that approach, whereas a guy who ran 100 mpw to break 15:00 may have a different profile and that profile may not lend itself to coming close to maxing out your ability on 70-80 mpw.

That being said, the 67 half on low volume is a really, really encouraging sign in that regard. Either way, you seem to have identified the volume hat works for your lifestyle, so you need to take that and run with it by using every one of those 70-80 miles as efficiently as possible.

In the interest of full disclosure before taking any of my advice, I came to the longer distances much later in life (after age 40), so I have not run 2:23 my best time is 2:30.

40-60mpw on 5-7 runs is not going to get it done in the marathon. Trying to run the pace required to hit the
OTQ you will not be able to sustain the last 5 miles or so.

---

Garmin_Guy wrote:

---

3km to 26.2 wrote:

Very structured plan

But I tend to be a control freak about training...:)

Arthur Lydiard’s book is closet I have to a coach...his YouTube vids too.

---

How far in advance do you plan? Leading up to your next race? I'm just trying to see if I should draw something up for a February race... or just keep doing what I'm doing!

---

---

Garmin_Guy wrote:

Hoping to run 2:23-25 in the winter, and potentially go for an OTQ this spring, or else early in the fall (spring preferred, as work will be crazy in the fall). My current PRs (67:30, 2:30 with a huge negative split) have been run without a coach or a training plan. Basically I know I need a long run (usually weekends) and at least one workout (tempo or mile repeats) per week, and fill in the rest. I've ended up running 40-60 mpw on 5-7 runs.

Do you find that adding that structure into your week is beneficial? Or should I keep going with the concept of 'get the training in when you can'?

---

---

Garmin_Guy wrote:

Hoping to run 2:23-25 in the winter, and potentially go for an OTQ this spring, or else early in the fall (spring preferred, as work will be crazy in the fall). My current PRs (67:30, 2:30 with a huge negative split) have been run without a coach or a training plan. Basically I know I need a long run (usually weekends) and at least one workout (tempo or mile repeats) per week, and fill in the rest. I've ended up running 40-60 mpw on 5-7 runs.

Do you find that adding that structure into your week is beneficial? Or should I keep going with the concept of 'get the training in when you can'?

---

---

Garmin_Guy wrote:

Hoping to run 2:23-25 in the winter, and potentially go for an OTQ this spring, or else early in the fall (spring preferred, as work will be crazy in the fall). My current PRs (67:30, 2:30 with a huge negative split) have been run without a coach or a training plan. Basically I know I need a long run (usually weekends) and at least one workout (tempo or mile repeats) per week, and fill in the rest. I've ended up running 40-60 mpw on 5-7 runs.

Do you find that adding that structure into your week is beneficial? Or should I keep going with the concept of 'get the training in when you can'?

---

---

HobbyJogging.com wrote:

---

Garmin_Guy wrote:

Hoping to run 2:23-25 in the winter, and potentially go for an OTQ this spring, or else early in the fall (spring preferred, as work will be crazy in the fall). My current PRs (67:30, 2:30 with a huge negative split) have been run without a coach or a training plan. Basically I know I need a long run (usually weekends) and at least one workout (tempo or mile repeats) per week, and fill in the rest. I've ended up running 40-60 mpw on 5-7 runs.

Do you find that adding that structure into your week is beneficial? Or should I keep going with the concept of 'get the training in when you can'?

---

Impressive time for that mileage. Makes it seem like you will be able to improve. But also that what you are doing is working well.

I think the best thing a coach can do is stop you from getting in your own way. Sometimes you need outside set of eyes on your training to make sure you are actually making progress and setting yourself up for success.

Seems like Smoove would actually be a good coach for you. Check out his website.

---

---

HobbyJogging.com wrote:

---

Garmin_Guy wrote:

Hoping to run 2:23-25 in the winter, and potentially go for an OTQ this spring, or else early in the fall (spring preferred, as work will be crazy in the fall). My current PRs (67:30, 2:30 with a huge negative split) have been run without a coach or a training plan. Basically I know I need a long run (usually weekends) and at least one workout (tempo or mile repeats) per week, and fill in the rest. I've ended up running 40-60 mpw on 5-7 runs.

Do you find that adding that structure into your week is beneficial? Or should I keep going with the concept of 'get the training in when you can'?

---

Impressive time for that mileage. Makes it seem like you will be able to improve. But also that what you are doing is working well.

I think the best thing a coach can do is stop you from getting in your own way. Sometimes you need outside set of eyes on your training to make sure you are actually making progress and setting yourself up for success.

Seems like Smoove would actually be a good coach for you. Check out his website.

---