Loudoun Valley Boys Score 16 Today at State Meet. Is it Tinman Training?

Texas HS Coach wrote:

CV pace is not new. It's just been rebrands. Probably what many of you call cruise intervals.

It’s not. Cruise intervals operate at threshold pace and are used to segue a runner into continuous threshold runs or to accumulate more volume at threshold due to the nature of having a period of rest thrown in. CV is 8k-15k pace with it averaging out to probably close to 10k pace in most. The range is different and supposedly has benefits that reach down to V02 max and well as reaching up to the anaerobic threshold. It is a different workout.

As for the guy saying this is what most high

school programs do? You are an idiot. Most high school programs do not do this at all. Most are still high on Daniels and his rigid training zones. Tinman isn’t nearly as linear and neither is Loudon. SDSU poster thinks that coaches don’t make a difference because he claims other schools do the same stuff with not the same results. Did you ever consider that the reason why the results are so different is BECAUSE of the coaches? It’s more than crapping out a training program. There are day to day adjustments that coaches make both physiologically and psychologicallly that really impact programs. Don’t overrate the runners or underrate the coaches. Takes two to tango and the Hunters are making a big impact. Guaranteed they could turn your HS program around in an instant.

Scarecrow. Lion. wrote:

peekay wrote:

False. Tinman thinks 60 minutes a day is enough but he would prefer it was done in doubles. He is a big proponent in the benefits of doubles. Look up what he did with Drew Hunter - he was doubling long before he got to his peak HS mileage.

From what I read (and it sounds like you may know more than me) on his website/messageboard, he talked about getting the AVERAGE high school kid to 60 minutes a day. I wonder if what he did for Drew Hunter was for an ELITE runner & specifically for him.

Could you link the information about Tinman´s position on doubling (that may be different from what I´ve read)?

From a quick search of his website

I'm sure there is more but I don't have time to look it up right now. I would recommend searching old Tinman posts on this board. He has always been a big proponent of doubling.

I agree, he would be in favor of getting to 60 minutes a day. I just think he would say to do it in doubles. And for experienced runners, he would get them to 70-80 minute days on occasion using 2 runs.

This guy has it right

Thanks for the links! I really appreciate it. Sometimes, LRC does come through! :-)

I'd be curious to see the time drop per kid, for say the top 90% of a team. Or maybe the 5-95% of an entire team. (toss out the outliers, slow and fast)

Take the first (course adjusted) time of the year per kid, and compare against the last time recorded per year. Look at % drop, per kid. Median and average. Has tully done this already?

Valley, and I'd guess the other "big name schools talked about here, would have 50 to 100+ runners. Enough to have a story if it's the transfers or the coaches.

That'd be more telling than trolls whining about transfers.

Yeah, very true. My daughters are in a locally-strong program in California (not a state powerhouse like Great Oak) and the coach hasn't changed her workouts since the 80s. It's low-mileage and harder days are always race pace long repeats with tons of rest or 400s at mile pace or faster on the track. They're decent though not amazing (or nearly as good as they could be) because they have good demographics and good talent, and the results lead everyone to think the long-time coach actually knows what she's doing and she is held in high regard in the area. Drives me nuts. Also, I can't speak to what Tinman says for high school kids, so maybe it's different, but he coached me as a masters runner and didn't push doubles at all. He gave a daily target in minutes and, other than the weekly long run (which should be a single), he said it was up to me whether I wanted to single or double to get to the day's target. I would assume it's the same training principles for high school kids, so I doubt Tom would push hard for them to double.

Loudon Valley might have won because of Tinman Training, but they're score of 16 points is so impressive because there are way too many classifications in Virginia. Freakin 6! The talent is far too diluted and they should return to 3 size distinctions for High Schools like they did in all time until just a few years ago.

For those saying CV is around 10k pace, that is true for good boy HS runners. My understanding of CV is it is the pace you could hold for a race lasting 30-35 minutes. For good HS boys, that would be ~10k pace. For good HS girls, that would be more like 8k pace. For your back-of-the-packers, it is actually not far off race pace.

Having CV be based off of an amount of time spent racing vs the same race distance for all is a subtle but important distinction because it puts everyone at the same intensity level in a workout when you have a HS team with wide ranging abilities.

Also, for the people who say that most HS programs train this way, I don't believe that to be the case. Very, very few HS programs have their bread-and-butter workout for the week revolve around a pace that is slower than race pace. Most HS programs will target either race pace, "goal" pace, or VO2 Max pace for their primary workouts, and maybe supplement that with some faster work (or, more rarely, some tempo work).

Tinman didn´t "invent" CV. I have a training book written by Anders Gärderud in the late 1980s where he advocates running 1000m repeats at around 10k pace with a short jog rest. He called them "aerobic intervals". Tinman just took old training and gave it a new name.

They did almost as well as the FM boys did yesterday.

most of their top 5 transferred in and were legit fast before transferring in. they are gaming the system.

Crab Colson wrote:

Loudon Valley might have won because of Tinman Training, but they're score of 16 points is so impressive because there are way too many classifications in Virginia. Freakin 6! The talent is far too diluted and they should return to 3 size distinctions for High Schools like they did in all time until just a few years ago.

I don´t think this is correct at all. School size makes all the difference in the world! You want to put a current 3A (approx. 1200 students) in the same classification as a single A school (250 students). That´s awfully unfair! Then, you want to put 4A schools with 6A schools? Sheez.

I coach at a small Virginia school & when your team has 20 kids TOTAL (boys & girls), your team makes or breaks with one kid deciding to play a travel league sport instead of playing a high school sport.

Going to invitationals with your small team is always a tough day. With no classifications, you know what´s going to happen before it ever begins. And, the school is paying good money to send your team to these invitationals too.

I often wonder how good a coach would be (And, no, I´m NOT speaking of the Hunters. Much respect to what they´re doing in Loudoun County.) if they went from 100+ kids on the team down to 15-20 runners total. It´s a tough gig.

Want to know what else most small schools have in common? POVERTY. I have kids, during track season, share spikes! A kid wears them for the 1600, hands them off to their 800 friend, who gives them back for the 3200! Oh yeah, small school runners double at all track meets too!

Speaking of poverty, we all know the increase caloric intake needed to be a good runner. Yikes! We NEVER stop for food after races. And, when a kid can afford to buy a shirt at a meet, it is nearly a Christmas gift!

So, before you want things to go back ¨to the good old days¨, please realize this is only running & things are much more complex than stopwatch times.

Virginia population 8.47 million 6 classes,2182 schools

Illinois population 12.8 million 3 classes, 1519 schools

I'd say Virginia is watered down.

Coach, you sound defeated because of your size. Your talent pool may be smaller but you can still get the most out of your talent.

I think VA should have moved to 4 classifications, not 6. I totally agree that it is ridiculous for schools with 250 kids to have to compete with schools 3 times the size, but 6 classes is a lot. Loudoun Valley has about 1300-1400 kids in Class 4. Some Class 6 schools have twice the enrollment, maybe more. I don't know the answer, but I think it is too watered down. Note that Western Albemarle boys in 3A went 1-2-3-4-13 on Friday. When multiple teams are dominating like this maybe it IS watered down a bit. To further muddy the water, the middle sized classifications currently are better than the larger ones. Class 5 is especially weak overall. I think this also indicates that fewer classes would be better.

Pennsylvania is larger than Virginia and only has 3 classifications. My school personally has 92 boys and competes with schools with up to 189 (and somehow still does very well). AA is 190-373 boys. AAA is 374+ although that seems a little unfair. I would up AA to 200-450 boys.

just a minor point, but you should know there is a rest of the country that is envious of the way talent is groomed in va.

it's sort of a blessed land for running, granted, not the only one

ZOWIE! wrote:

Algonkin wrote:

good question-

prior to Loudoun Valley:

-a Footlocker finalist, 4:08, 9:02, as a sophomore

-a 16:07 as a sophomore who ran 4:28 as a freshman

-a 4:27, 9:49, 16:36 as a sophomore

-15:21, 9:37 as a sophomore

WOW! I did not know that! I knew about Sam, but 3 more!?!

That’s more recruited talent than many lower-mid D1 schools get every year. Assuming the sophomores will continue to develop at all.

So, separate from the training discussion where LV and the hunters have an amazing history, they clearly are taking advantage of a system. They’re not doing anything wrong just like all those kids who transfer for basketball or football do, but it’s not exactly a level playing field. Even if the hunter’s aren’t actively soliciting these kids. And just like Joe Newton doesn’t really get credit for Marius Bakken, the hunters score here comes with an asterisk

Crab Colson wrote:

Loudon Valley might have won because of Tinman Training, but they're score of 16 points is so impressive because there are way too many classifications in Virginia. Freakin 6! The talent is far too diluted and they should return to 3 size distinctions for High Schools like they did in all time until just a few years ago.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

They clearly mentioned reverting back to 3 classifications meaning 1A and 2A merge; 3A and 4A merge and 5A 6A merge so none of your examples are applicable.

The VA state meet is one of the most illogical and poorly run state meets I have seen. It makes zero sense to have 6 state champions and champions being crowned in races of 12 teams. It is just is so diluted and watered down.

Now Loudoun Valley would have won regardless of the merger but wouldn't people rather see them butting heads with Western Albemarle and Deep Run instead of running away from the field? As long as they are this good they are going to be close to a perfect score every year it will just depend on when a good individual happens to be in 4A because of how small the field is.