Americans don’t dope
Americans don’t dope
They don't have as free reign to dope as East Africans have had for the last 30 years. Lance Armstrong was doping in a sport in which just about everybody doped and it was accepted more or less as normal and acceptable. And he finally got caught (or outed).
Cycling was a bubble in which fans and participants accepted doping. Similar to sports such as the NFL, boxing, and at least until recently the UFC/MMA. The problem for Lance Armstrong was that outside that bubble, doping is not accepted, and Armstrong was a mainstream hero and celebrity.
I don't believe doping in track and road running has ever been accepted by fans or participants, apart from a few African countries and a few subculture groups of 'fans' such as the doping apologists found on this board.
I would also think most American sportsmen willing to take the risk of doping for fame or dollars would have chosen a different sport than marathon running anyway.
Coevett wrote:
jiaaf wrote:
No offense, but if you were smarter you would know that it could be both as well as other factors you failed to mention.
It can be both, but if you were smart you would realize that it would still mean that ped use is essential to Kenyan domination. Kenyans might be able to produce (because of their body types, which might not be entirely genetic) countless runners with the ability to naturally run 2:10 if they spend their lives devoted to it. Give them almost free reign to dope themselves silly with an endurance drug that could probably take at least 5 minutes off of their time, and not only will you have legions of sub 2:10 runners, but it will have a massively demotivating effect on non Kenyan/doped runners, whose times will tend to go backwards.
If Kenyans are inherently so above the rest of the world (apart from Ethiopia, which just so happens to be another country where EPO is available over the counter in every high street pharmacy), then surely they would do a bit better in other sports. Nearly all sports award an advantage to aerobic ability. There are guys in a sport as brutal and yet technical as MMA/the UFC who get to the top a large part due to their ability to simply keep the pressure when their opponents simply run out of gas (examples the Diaz borthers, Bisping). Yet Kenyans can't seem to even compete in any other sport other than distance running.
It also ironic, to say the least, that the most famous and richest athlete in Kenyan sporting history, is a pasty faced Scottish born kid who dominated the other (and far more lucrative) aerobic sport of cycling.
Your arguments fail due to you defective chains of reasoning and bias. Th odds are great that I am genetically gifted in terms of intelligence, and certainly in relation to you. Now if I took a drug to aid my cognition to increase the already inherent disparity between us, I would be in much the same position as the doping Kenyan in relation to the non doping European. Dope the European and the Kenyan still wins. Much like if you and a I both took a drug to make us smarter, I remain superior to you. Got it?
Moo Goo wrote:
Stop posting work out hero pics on IG and actually concentrate on training at a humbling regimen.
Brilliant.
If it isn't clear by now, their genetics are superior, and generations going back to the dawn of time being born at 8,000 ft can't be forgotten.
jiaaf wrote:
Coevett wrote:
It can be both, but if you were smart you would realize that it would still mean that ped use is essential to Kenyan domination. Kenyans might be able to produce (because of their body types, which might not be entirely genetic) countless runners with the ability to naturally run 2:10 if they spend their lives devoted to it. Give them almost free reign to dope themselves silly with an endurance drug that could probably take at least 5 minutes off of their time, and not only will you have legions of sub 2:10 runners, but it will have a massively demotivating effect on non Kenyan/doped runners, whose times will tend to go backwards.
If Kenyans are inherently so above the rest of the world (apart from Ethiopia, which just so happens to be another country where EPO is available over the counter in every high street pharmacy), then surely they would do a bit better in other sports. Nearly all sports award an advantage to aerobic ability. There are guys in a sport as brutal and yet technical as MMA/the UFC who get to the top a large part due to their ability to simply keep the pressure when their opponents simply run out of gas (examples the Diaz borthers, Bisping). Yet Kenyans can't seem to even compete in any other sport other than distance running.
It also ironic, to say the least, that the most famous and richest athlete in Kenyan sporting history, is a pasty faced Scottish born kid who dominated the other (and far more lucrative) aerobic sport of cycling.
Your arguments fail due to you defective chains of reasoning and bias. Th odds are great that I am genetically gifted in terms of intelligence, and certainly in relation to you. Now if I took a drug to aid my cognition to increase the already inherent disparity between us, I would be in much the same position as the doping Kenyan in relation to the non doping European. Dope the European and the Kenyan still wins. Much like if you and a I both took a drug to make us smarter, I remain superior to you. Got it?
Oh, Is that why no Kenyan can ever approach Paula? Or is that why a random Euro like Moen can all of a sudden be like the best Kenyans? Or is that why a Kenyan man or woman can never approach 400 times of Marita Koch or Wariner?
Americans train in miles, so the mental barrier in training is 5:00/mile or 2:11 pace.
Every other country trains in kilometers, and the barrier is 3:00/km or 2:06 pace.
There’s also a greater margin of error for running a 5:00 mile rep wrong vs running a 3:00 km rep wrong.
I.e. you could run a 5:00 mile rep with 1/4 splits of 70, 73, 76, 81.
Did you run 5:00? Yes!
Did you do it in a way that will make it comfortable to run during a race? No.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Americans train in miles, so the mental barrier in training is 5:00/mile or 2:11 pace.
Every other country trains in kilometers, and the barrier is 3:00/km or 2:06 pace.
There’s also a greater margin of error for running a 5:00 mile rep wrong vs running a 3:00 km rep wrong.
I.e. you could run a 5:00 mile rep with 1/4 splits of 70, 73, 76, 81.
Did you run 5:00? Yes!
Did you do it in a way that will make it comfortable to run during a race? No.
+1
Moo Goo wrote:
Stop posting work out hero pics on IG and actually concentrate on training at a humbling regimen.
Dumbest post so far.
Is this question really too hard to break down? NYC is a difficult course. The top guys are all in 2:03-05 shape and ran 2:06. The top Americans would top out at 2:09-11 ran 2:12. It makes enough sense to me.
Give Me Break wrote:
Give it a rest Coevett wrote:
FFS Coevett, find a new video.
0/10 ?
You can't point out what is wrong in the video, so you can only resort to Ad hominem.
we have a winner wrote:
Moo Goo wrote:
Stop posting work out hero pics on IG and actually concentrate on training at a humbling regimen.
Brilliant.
If it isn't clear by now, their genetics are superior, and generations going back to the dawn of time being born at 8,000 ft can't be forgotten.
Not according to this:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/517e/9d33f5fee8e519b9225bd47cd4b1de7f905a.pdfI came of age in the 70s and 8s, when the Africans were mixing it up with Euro/Americans, but wern't dominant like today. Something changed radically in the 90s, and I don't think it was just money, although that is part of the picture.
If a gullible young Kenyan is offered PEDs to make a lifetime's worth of prize money in a season or two, then can retire or disappear (we have seen this many times), it's hard to entirely blame them when the game is set up that way. I am frustrated that the PED-providing ecosystem seems to still be intact in East Africa today, despite the recent drug busts. I don't think that a similar ecosystem exists in the U.S. or western Europe; NOP is weak sauce compared to Russia and Kenya.
1955 wrote:
Two things:
- not play soccer (takes away lots of potentially good runners)
- not have college available as a means of preparing for a career (takes away motivation to do well financially via running).
Soccer is by far the biggest and most popular sport in Kenya.
YMMV wrote:
I came of age in the 70s and 8s, when the Africans were mixing it up with Euro/Americans, but wern't dominant like today. Something changed radically in the 90s, and I don't think it was just money, although that is part of the picture.
If a gullible young Kenyan is offered PEDs to make a lifetime's worth of prize money in a season or two, then can retire or disappear (we have seen this many times), it's hard to entirely blame them when the game is set up that way. I am frustrated that the PED-providing ecosystem seems to still be intact in East Africa today, despite the recent drug busts. I don't think that a similar ecosystem exists in the U.S. or western Europe; NOP is weak sauce compared to Russia and Kenya.
Doping alone cant explain why 300-400 Kenyans break 2,15 every year.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Americans train in miles, so the mental barrier in training is 5:00/mile or 2:11 pace.
Every other country trains in kilometers, and the barrier is 3:00/km or 2:06 pace.
There’s also a greater margin of error for running a 5:00 mile rep wrong vs running a 3:00 km rep wrong.
I.e. you could run a 5:00 mile rep with 1/4 splits of 70, 73, 76, 81.
Did you run 5:00? Yes!
Did you do it in a way that will make it comfortable to run during a race? No.
Interesting take. Never thought of it this way.
Positive Contribution wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Americans train in miles, so the mental barrier in training is 5:00/mile or 2:11 pace.
Every other country trains in kilometers, and the barrier is 3:00/km or 2:06 pace.
There’s also a greater margin of error for running a 5:00 mile rep wrong vs running a 3:00 km rep wrong.
I.e. you could run a 5:00 mile rep with 1/4 splits of 70, 73, 76, 81.
Did you run 5:00? Yes!
Did you do it in a way that will make it comfortable to run during a race? No.
Interesting take. Never thought of it this way.
People say this in every "why aren't Americans running as fast in marathons" thread and it's just as dumb every time. Shows how little the poster knows about how elites train/race.
well,, wrote:
YMMV wrote:
I came of age in the 70s and 8s, when the Africans were mixing it up with Euro/Americans, but wern't dominant like today. Something changed radically in the 90s, and I don't think it was just money, although that is part of the picture.
If a gullible young Kenyan is offered PEDs to make a lifetime's worth of prize money in a season or two, then can retire or disappear (we have seen this many times), it's hard to entirely blame them when the game is set up that way. I am frustrated that the PED-providing ecosystem seems to still be intact in East Africa today, despite the recent drug busts. I don't think that a similar ecosystem exists in the U.S. or western Europe; NOP is weak sauce compared to Russia and Kenya.
Doping alone cant explain why 300-400 Kenyans break 2,15 every year.
This is obviously true. But you’ll never convince the vocal minority here who are quite certain that East Africans couldn’t possibly be more predisposed to running talent than the white man. And it couldn’t possibly be true that cultural and economic changes over time that have led to more Africans finding their way to the sport. After all, the popularity of track in the western world hasn’t changed at all through the decades, so why should it be different elsewhere?
Have parents who are very thin and grow up never overeating - skinny and eatingblow calorie right from birth.
Wealth and access to unlimited calories and protein is great for being healthy, but also leads to obesity rather than being thin. East Africans don’t need to do anything crazy to remain thin, just stick to how they’ve always eaten. But for an American to be that thin requires a massive change in eating behavior and constant effort. Change is hard requires a lot of work. That work takes a toll. Dieting takes a toll. The East Africans don’t need to put in that work.
Generations of being underfed from birth without the crap food or easy daily lives of not having to walk or exercise. How much standing, walking, moving, physical labor do Americans do? Even runners are largely sedentary outside of their workouts, mostly sitting around and getting lots of sleep.
Stat of the day: Mary Keitany's 2nd half marathon split was 66:58. Jared Ward's split, the top American male, was 66:59.
The U.S. should forget competing against the African's and start competing with our own past. We need to start running times that the U.S. was producing 30 to 40 years ago. I would be happy just to get someone to run as fast as Bill Rodgers, Frank Shorter, Alberto Salazar, Dick Beardsley etc. Let's just try to get back to we were.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year