East Africans are not genetically superior

casual obsever wrote:

Coevett wrote:

some unscientific straw polls at the Pan Arab EPO Games quoted again and again by Casual Observer.

LOL. "some unscientific straw polls". Of course neither you nor rekrunner appreciate the results of that scientific study, supported by IAAF and WADA, peer-reviewed by more experts, and ultimately published in a reputable scientific journal. You just have a huge aversion to facts.

Be that as it may:

1) That scientific study also included the 2011 Worlds, the results of which were separately listed.

2) It did not differentiate between the nations.

3) In a different scientific study, Kenya was shown to be about average in in-competition blood-doping during the 2011 and the 2013 worlds, and Ethiopia was worse than average.

4) Most Kenyan bans are not about blood-doping.

5) I am not aware of any study showing that all "doping in East Africa seems to be about the worldwide average".

Of course I appreciate the results for what they are. All of my opinions about “the results of that scientific study”, are taken directly from the study itself, or from subsequent and related studies, also published in reputable scientific journals, and peer-reviewed by experts.

I agree with your points 1) - 5). Regarding 3) and 5), “Coevett” mentioned possible blood doping in the ‘80s, and “DopeKemboi” the alleged significance of EPO in 1995, calling it the first year of “EPO”.

Why are Kenya and Ethiopian athletes this good at long distance races?

Here are some reasons to consider:

1. Skinny lives matters: If you were parent or guardian to a 14-year-old American boy with a Body Mass Index of 15.5, the neighbors might whisper about neglect and possibly report you to a child-protection agency. But in Kenya, your home might be the envy of the neighbors, where future distance runners come to train. Being thin includes having skinny legs. And an average Kenyan’s leg is 400 grams lighter than those of their European competitors, which translates to an energy saving of 8% when running. Over long distances, this small genetic advantage can really give Kenyans a leg up.

2. The barefoot debate: Daniel E. Lieberman, an evolutionary biologist and professor of biological science at Harvard, caused an international stir nearly a decade ago when he published a paper showing that running in cushioned sneakers encourages athletes to strike the ground harder than when running barefoot. Kenyans and Ethiopians often run miles to school barefoot, an action Lieberman believes gives them a special edge. Ethiopian Abebe Bikila even won the 1960 Olympic marathon running barefoot.

3. You are what you eat: It is believed by researchers that the routine diet of the Kenyans and Ethiopians — which is typically high in carbohydrates and low in fat - plays a role in their success. Their protein intake matches that of other elite athletes. Generally, the staple diets of Kenyan runners include ugali (stiff porridge made from maize or millet flour), green leafy vegetables, milk, kidney beans and eggs.

4. Psychological advantage: Some researchers have suggested that Kenya’s long-distance runners have a psychological advantage as they now see themselves as unbeatable on the global stage — as does their competition. This edge over other long-distance runners has developed among Kenyan runners because they have an aura of invincibility, both in their own and their opponents’ minds.

5. High altitude training: Another reason that might explain the performance of Kenyans and Ethiopian athletes is the high altitude environment in which they live.

https://globalsportmatters.com/science/2019/11/01/what-makes-east-africans-so-good-at-distance-running/

It turns out that Kenyans' success may be innate. Two separate, European-led studies in a small region in western Kenya, which produces most of the race-winners, found that young men there could, with only a few months training, reliably outperform some of the West's best professional runners. In other words, they appeared to have a physical advantage that is common to their community, making it probably genetic. The studies found significant differences in body mass index and bone structure between the Western pros and the Kenyan amateurs who had bested them. The studied Kenyans had less mass for their height, longer legs, shorter torsos, and more slender limbs. One of the researchers described the Kenyan physical differences as "bird-like," noting that these traits would make them more efficient runners, especially over long distances.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/

If this "inaccuracy" is what worries you so much, I must illuminate this mystery to you: The value of 178 cm comes from NHANES 2003-2006, whereas the value of 177 cm is the average of NHANES surveys conducted between 1999-2018. Apparently, the number of examined men is very small and the values fluctuate a lot. The mean of white men from NHANES 2003-2006 (179 cm) is also an exaggeration. The true mean of US black men is around 177 cm and that of US white men around 178 cm. And these values have been stagnating for at least two decades. (You can thank US nutritional experts, who ruined your diet and greatly contributed to your top positions in the world rankings of body width.)

So much for your concerns and we can mutually save each other's time because in other cases, your (mis)understanding of my data will undoubtedly be carried in a similar spirit.

Passant wrote:

It turns out that Kenyans' success may be innate. Two separate, European-led studies in a small region in western Kenya, which produces most of the race-winners, found that young men there could, with only a few months training, reliably outperform some of the West's best professional runners. In other words, they appeared to have a physical advantage that is common to their community, making it probably genetic. The studies found significant differences in body mass index and bone structure between the Western pros and the Kenyan amateurs who had bested them. The studied Kenyans had less mass for their height, longer legs, shorter torsos, and more slender limbs. One of the researchers described the Kenyan physical differences as "bird-like," noting that these traits would make them more efficient runners, especially over long distances.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/

Psuedo-scientific nonsense.

First of all, that article was published before 100+ Kenyan doping busts including Kiprop and other Olympic champions, world champions, and world record holders. It's unlikely such an article would be published now.

Secondly, just looking at the first 'scientific study' it quotes. This was a debunked 'experiment' in which Kenyan teens were compared with a supposedly elite Danish runner. It turned out with a bit of digging, that the 'elite' Danish runner was something like 45 and had a lifetime 5K pb of 17 minutes or such.

No matter how many times this is pointed out here, that 'study' continues to get posted as proof that Kenyans are superior to Europeans.

It's funny how a fake study comparing a group of Kenyan teens to a fake Scandinavian elite is still used to propagate this myth, when recently we've had a real Scandinavian schoolboy running faster than 50 million Kenyans.

Note that the epic thread in which I originally highlighted the debunking of that fake Danish study was deleted by the mods. I wonder how many talented white American and European distance runners have been turned off by this forum and its incessant racist propagation of the myth that East Africans are almost an offshoot of regular humanity, radically genetically different to the rest of the world (except curiously....Moroccans!)?

And the disturbing thing is, this racist myth right from the start was nothing more than a cover to enable East African rampant doping and enrichment of shady and exploitative European managers.

Coevett wrote:

Note that the epic thread in which I originally highlighted the debunking of that fake Danish study was deleted by the mods. I wonder how many talented white American and European distance runners have been turned off by this forum and its incessant racist propagation of the myth that East Africans are almost an offshoot of regular humanity, radically genetically different to the rest of the world (except curiously....Moroccans!)?

And the disturbing thing is, this racist myth right from the start was nothing more than a cover to enable East African rampant doping and enrichment of shady and exploitative European managers.

Tell me more about how Kenya has twice the population of GB.

You can use any of your usernames.

Maybe Coevett, if you narrowed your argument regarding equality between the ethnic & racial groups to 100m dash, you would come across more reasonably. From 1924 to 1980 Olympics, Black men and White men earned Olympic medals in 100m dash.

What type of men usually serve as infantrymen for a nation's Army or Marines? Usually muscular and fit (150 to 190) pound men, men who would have been the type to sprint 100m. Millions of White men, infantrymen died during WW2. Are there fewer White muscular 150 to 190 pound men today than there would be if millions of men did not die in WW2? Many men under 120 pounds did not serve in infantry. Many men in not so good physical condition over 240 pounds did not serve in infantry during WW2. Are the 120 pound and under men on this thread debating you today?

There may be all sorts of reasons why Whites do not sprint 100m anymore. There may be social reasons. Do Black 23.xx & 55.xx 200m & 400m 13 year olds stay with sprints? Some turn into 20.xx & 44.xx 200m & 400m guys by age 23. Do White 23.xx & 55.xx 200m & 400m 13 year olds participate in youth XC, become 800m & 1500m athletes and never fully develop sprinting potential?

Fight your fight Coevett at 100m. There seems to be several advantages possessed by those who live near Mount Kilimanjaro for 5000m to Marathon.

Posts like yours are obviously the work of paid shills working for somebody or something connected to the multi-million dollar East African doping industry.

You keep referring to the altitude argument. As I stated previously, most of the genetic supremacists have to fall back on making vague claims about 'economy' and 'efficiency of stride' etc. This seems very different to a broad claim that living at altitude for thousands of years would have some effect on the blood or the organs or the body's ability to transport blood to muscles etc. This broader claim seems at first glance reasonable, but there's two questions need to be answered :

1 - Why do other populations at similar altitudes not appear to have these benefits? (except, err.... those other famous EPO abusers the Moroccans).

2 - Why do these benefits appear to bring East Africans no advantages in any other aerobic endurance sport such as cycling etc.? Or any advantage in sports in which having 'superhuman' aerobic capacities would be a tremendous advantage (such as boxing, or for that matter, just about any real sport). And don't give me any rubbish about Kenyans being too poor to own a bike. Chris Froome was from a working class dirt poor family even by Kenyan standards. His (black) teacher was impressed by his obvious talent and lent him a decent bike. Now Chris Froome earns more in a year while he's injure than Kipchoge, Rudisha, Lagat, Kipop, Komen etc did in their entire careers x 100. Isn't it a freaking co-incidence that in a country of 50 million aerobic genetic superhuman black people, that the population of 20,000 or so pasty faced pathetic genetic whites produced the richest Kenyan aerobic sportsperson in their history by far?

You can be absolutely sure that if there was any basis in Kenyans having some genetic advantage for aerobic power then professional cycling teams would be descending upon the Rift Valley like vultures - or like the dozens of Italian and Spanish track agents and managers - eager to dominate their billion dollar sport through signing the best Kenyan superhuman talent.

And btw, if you want to persist with the argument that Kenyans can't do any sport but distance running, then you're just confirming my point made earlier that it's about participation levels - either a genetic or environmental factor that makes East Africans useless at any other sport than distance running.

Coevett wrote:

Note that the epic thread in which I originally highlighted the debunking of that fake Danish study was deleted by the mods. I wonder how many talented white American and European distance runners have been turned off by this forum and its incessant racist propagation of the myth that East Africans are almost an offshoot of regular humanity, radically genetically different to the rest of the world (except curiously....Moroccans!)?

And the disturbing thing is, this racist myth right from the start was nothing more than a cover to enable East African rampant doping and enrichment of shady and exploitative European managers.

The next step for you now is to provide some better evidence of “a cover to enable East African rampant doping and enrichment of shady and exploitative European managers”. Recall world-cross country domination for a decade in the ‘80s predates your 150+ doping busts, and European managers. All you have so far is some feeble suggestion that East Africans of the ‘80s were already out-doping all of the rich countries of the world, at their peak.

The real experience of school kids beating track superstars has been replicated all over the world. Look what happens when East Africans move to foreign countries, like Japan, GB, USA, and even Denmark, subject to the same doping rules and tests.

Conversely, the experience of doping non-East Africans has not yet replicated the results of the East Africans.

“Genetics” is a red-herring — it is only one factor out of about a dozen relevant factors. Environment is also important. Healthy body weight is also important.

Kenyan 800m runners and some others from other nations who have done okay at 1500m from foothills of Mt. Kilimanjaro would poke holes in your statement of only distance running. I do not consider 800m a distance event.

There is nothing wrong if unique body build along with an unique environment have specifically aided men & women 400m to Marathon near Mt. Kilimanjaro. I have no problem if you say cyclists organizations are not seeking them out. Julius Yego, KEN did earn an Olympic medal, javelin throw, 2016 Olympics so Kenyans are not merely one trick athletes.

Btw., I have no financial agenda. I think it is clear I am far less passionate about this than you are. I just believe you are incorrect. I believe the gist of you argument is White Marathoners would be defeating those from or near Mt. Kilimanjaro but for drugs. You have not proven your pt. and you have not even persuaded very many readers in my opinion.

Coevett wrote:

... there's two questions need to be answered :

1 - Why do other populations at similar altitudes not appear to have these benefits? (except, err.... those other famous EPO abusers the Moroccans).

2 - Why do these benefits appear to bring East Africans no advantages in any other aerobic endurance sport such as cycling etc.? Or any advantage in sports in which having 'superhuman' aerobic capacities would be a tremendous advantage...

If the genetical advantage is related to a body type (e.g. thin ankles/calves) giving an advantage due more energy-efficient running, it is possible that...

1) ... there tends to be less population in the other high altitude residents with this advantage, therefore other native 6000-7000 ft athletes get only the extra RBCs but not tend to be super-efficient runners due to this phenomenon.

2) ... the advantage gives no benefit at all in other aerobic sports because the demands of an elite cyclist are not 1:1 the same as those of an elite runner.

Since 2016, actually.

This is not completely true.

The ecogeographical rule you're talking about only takes temperature in account, however precipitation levels and hygrometry make a difference (especially under elevated temperatures).

Sweating would not dissipate heat effectively under a moist-hot climate.

Therefore, under a high dew point such adaption woud be inadequate. A recent study has shown that in hot environments, lean mass increase was correlated with mean annual precipitation (and for once, they did not have to remove Polynesians from the equation, for their observation, to hold true).

Which leads me to remind you that East Africans are not a monolithic bunch and East Africa is not completely arid.

I was not talking about this , but rather that :

Which is factually, untrue :

Tobagonian male islanders with a mean age of 42 y.o were measured at 177cm, females of similar age at 166.5cm. We are talking about pople born in the late 1950s to early 1960. Tobagonians unlike Trinidadians or even Black Americans are very much West Africans.

Source: Tobago Bone Health Study.2007.

Maybe the most complete study made on a rural W. African population. (Whole male sample, n = 2500, mean age : 56, mean height: 175cm.)

Several other Carribbean countries have young males above 174cm.

You did not reserch too much

This is actually false, lets take a review at a peer-rev data

Oh, BTW, the reason why East Africans are not obese is of course due to rampant malnutrition, low caloric intake and poverty.

Passant wrote:

I will always tell this. If a country like the Sudan was stable and economically stronger, they will put three 800m runners in every IAAF final.

East Africans of Nilotic origin have the propensity to have physical attributes that are ideal for competitive long distance running. East Africans of Bantu origin tend not to have the attributes for long distance running.

/EOT

Coevett quote: “ Chris Froome was from a working class dirt poor family even by Kenyan standards. His (black) teacher was impressed by his obvious talent and lent him a decent bike.” (End quote)

Completely wrong on that. Froome’s family came from patrician posh English backgrounds, and Chris and his brother went to expensive private schools both in England (Rugby Private school/college) and in South Africa. Hardly poor, even though Chris’s mother ran into hard times for a while in Kenya with her business problems but stating Chris is from a “poor background is absurd”.

You only have to listen to Chris talk to understand that he’s from a posh upper-class background.

A three minute scan of wiki will confirm this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Froome