Ketogenic diet vs standard high carb diet for runners

It's ironic to say weight control is effortless with keto, considering all the effort it takes to start and stay on keto.

90% carnivore? Do you understand what happens to excess protein that your body cannot use? That's right: converted to carbs...

keto is not carnivore wrote:

90% carnivore? Do you understand what happens to excess protein that your body cannot use? That's right: converted to carbs...

And your point is? Your body can synthesis all the carbohydrates you need from fat and protein. No more and no less than what you need.

keto is not carnivore wrote:

90% carnivore? Do you understand what happens to excess protein that your body cannot use? That's right: converted to carbs...

I don't exceed my body's demand for protein (which is far higher than RDAs would indicate). After a protein meal I stay in ketosis unless I added some carbs.

YMMV wrote:

paper bag wrote:

No, you won't find anyone running fast on the keto diet. Yes, some top ultra runners, but if you look closely they are eating carbs before and during races.

If you understood physiology, you would know why they do this, albeit they use carbs at a much lower rate than their not-as-fat-adapted competition (see the excellent FASTER study by Volek and Phinney).

This lowered carb requirement is a major reason why Jeff Browning, who struggled for years with stomach issues as a high-carb vegan, has never had a setback due to stomach problems since becoming fat-adapted, a malady which plagues runners such as Sage Canaday over the longer distances.

Trust me, I understand physiology. There's nothing to complicated about it. However, there is often times a misunderstanding of how metabolism and energy systems work.

Let's just put it this way. There is no evidence or case study that proves or even suggests that a keto diet is better for your longer distance running events. Everything is anecdotal.

coachcommentsnicely wrote:

YMMV wrote:

If you understood physiology, you would know why they do this, albeit they use carbs at a much lower rate than their not-as-fat-adapted competition (see the excellent FASTER study by Volek and Phinney).

This lowered carb requirement is a major reason why Jeff Browning, who struggled for years with stomach issues as a high-carb vegan, has never had a setback due to stomach problems since becoming fat-adapted, a malady which plagues runners such as Sage Canaday over the longer distances.

Trust me, I understand physiology. There's nothing to complicated about it. However, there is often times a misunderstanding of how metabolism and energy systems work.

Let's just put it this way. There is no evidence or case study that proves or even suggests that a keto diet is better for your longer distance running events. Everything is anecdotal.

You can wait ten years for someone to scrape together enough grant money for an RCT, which may or may not relate to your own needs, or you can just try it yourself. It's not that hard.

It's like running training: if you rely on "scientific evidence" for everything you do, you will be left behind by the "anecdotal" athlete who listens well to their own body's feedback, and/or has an experienced coach (who is probably not going to be an exercise physiologist). My only regret is that I didn't give it a go decades ago; granted the available information was extremely limited, even at the anecdotal level.

Moto wrote:

Elite runners do not do fad diets. They train.

Bhahahhahah, by god mate, there you have it. The dumbest post of the thread right at the beginning. A diet developed in a clinical setting to control seizures and eventually diabetes is a FAD DIET. Nice work, mate. Gotta be hard being that dense.

Using lipids is extremely efficient but it is SLOW!! You can not change this through training. At 85% VO2 max you are using around 2/3's glycogen so it is somewhat useful for the Marathon distance and very useful for Ultras.

Stop pushing it for near VO2Max efforts!! You are wrong to suggest you can change the ATP regeneration speed. You can not!!

It is about twice as slow of a mechanism for ATP regeneration and consumes over 4 times more oxygen. That's why glycogen at VO2Max effort and higher is the body's go to. If you are out of it, your body consumes more lipids and slows down.

https://clinicalnutritionespen.com/article/S1751-4991(11)00006-0/pdf

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article/figures?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960

As for me, never had benefits with any diet or food restriction. Always felt even worse. As for loosing weight i was using pills. And for preparing to some competitions and tournaments i was always trying to stick to daily food regime, worked just fine - always knew when i want to eat and i don't want to.

https://www.giamcandep.vn/9-bai-tap-the-duc-giam-mo-bung-duoi-cho-nu-nhanh-nhat-san-chac-co-bung/

Firstly, Carbs don't cause diabetes. Insulin, overeating and inactivity does and that's a very important distinction as some countries who have the highest ratio of carbohydrate intake have some of the lowest prevalance of diabetes while it's the overweight countries that have the real problem.

That's not an accident if you have a little knowledge on what causes diabetes. When you eat carbs, your blood sugar rises and insulin rushes in to clear up by moving glucose into your liver and muscles for storage, it has no problem doing that but where a slight problem begins is when you start eating more than your muscles can store and the insulin response has to move the glucose to the fat cells to convert it for storage in those cells. The really big problem is if you are really bingeing and spiking insulin, your fat cells become resistant to insulin and can't take all the glucose so it remains in the blood stream.

It's easy to see why overweight people are more prone to this. But if you look at it from an athletic perspective, there is a big hole in that as athletes who are training semi-seriously will rarely ever have full liver or muscle glycogen stores as they burn it off so quickly and if those stores are rarely full, then sugar gets to fat cells very rarely too and those cells do not have an oppurtunity to get resistent to insulin. To claim carbs are bad is to miss the whole point, inactivity and overeating are the main causes of diabetes.

On the performance side, I don't know how often this has to reiterated but we already know how fat oxidation affects oxygen cost, the evidence is overwhelming in that high levels of fat oxidation is linked intrinsically to lower metabolic economy. Any studies which have gone as far measuring race performance will show that performance is negatively affected in this scenario and at all sub-max efforts.

Volek and Phinney half assed their study by cutting it off at the point they wanted to see(increased fat oxidation=improved aerobic capacity) but that does not necessarily mean improved performance as it is only one factor in a much bigger picture and has consequences on other essential physiological and neurological processes involved in performance.

Terrible on SKD wrote:

I recently tried keto for 5 weeks and it was terrible! I was on 30g carbs net per day. Speed across the board was worse. Speed endurance was particularly bad. Ironically endurance was also worse at slow speeds (65% V02 max). Near the end of keto I time trialed a half marathon on the same course I did earlier in the year. I was significantly slower, despite being done in easier conditions. Pre-keto half: 1:16, 170lbs, 65F, 75% RH. Keto half: 1:26, 161lbs, 50F, 74% RH.

5 weeks is not enough time to become adapted. It takes your body time to adapt to utilizing fat for fuel and the longer you do it the more efficient it becomes.

nutritional biochemistry is real wrote:

I have nominated you for the fad diet hall of fame and the nutritional biochemistry comedy hall of fame. Well done.

Deciding to not consume potato chips and crackers is a fad diet? Stay away from the evil whole foods, it's a fad diet....this dude.

meh. wrote:

nutritional biochemistry is real wrote:

I have nominated you for the fad diet hall of fame and the nutritional biochemistry comedy hall of fame. Well done.

Deciding to not consume potato chips and crackers is a fad diet? Stay away from the evil whole foods, it's a fad diet....this dude.

Who said avoiding potato chips and crackers is a fad diet? Must have missed that.

One year of keto diet as of this Friday.

Age is 54. 5K times now in high-18s, as fast as I was when I was 40, and 3 minutes faster than two years ago. Lifting heavier now, taking Creatine 3X weekly, though I don't really need it.

Bloodwork is excellent, equal to or better than any I have on record, going back more than 25 years. Hearing has improved, haven't taken a painkiller either OTC or prescription in 10 months.

I don't eat sugar or carbs of any sort. Fish, fatty meats, raw dairy, sometimes spinach.

How much weight have you lost?

Has anyone tried to go keto for base (because aerobic is in the fat burning heart rate zone?) And then used strategically timed carbs once adding in some anaerobic/racing?

Basically like periodizing nutrition. If so, I'd love to hear results.

Hi all, trying to reignite this thread to see what's new for runners on a keto diet or variations of Low carb High Fat (LCHF).

Anyone tried it recently and want share their good or bad experiences? I would love to hear more. Thanks!

Paging YMMV, there is a new fad that needs an energetic, unpaid dolt as a spokesperson.