What's the best strategy to beat sit-n-kickers like Centro or Farah?

If you think Mo was capable of mid 12:40s you're delusional. The Ethiopians would have dropped him with ease.

Sit and kick faster

Or take it out hard from the start...neutralize the kick

Bekele, Gebrselassie, and Komen could all out-kick Mo. Make it a fast race and Mo will just "play along" at sub 12:50? Yeah ok.

Were you born yesterday? wrote:

Bekele, Gebrselassie, and Komen could all out-kick Mo. Make it a fast race and Mo will just "play along" at sub 12:50? Yeah ok.

Komen's kick was nothing special. Without someone else in the race to help him push the pace, he wouldn't beat Mo.

Not Komen wrote:

Were you born yesterday? wrote:

Bekele, Gebrselassie, and Komen could all out-kick Mo. Make it a fast race and Mo will just "play along" at sub 12:50? Yeah ok.

Komen's kick was nothing special. Without someone else in the race to help him push the pace, he wouldn't beat Mo.

Komen beat one of the all-time sit and kick 5/10K runners in this video without anyone to help out with the pace. Bayi was also able to gap the kickers.

Were you born yesterday? wrote:

Bekele, Gebrselassie, and Komen could all out-kick Mo. Make it a fast race and Mo will just "play along" at sub 12:50? Yeah ok.

I doubt Komen could out-kick Mo, In fact, Komen never showed he had a good kick. As for Geb, he clearly had a lethal kick, but never as dangerous as Mo. Mo closed a 26:49 10k in 54, I don't recall Gebrselassie closing faster than that, even off a slower race.

Mo clearly had much much faster 12:50 in him, but yeah, he never went for it, hence his "slow" pb.

I agree Bekele could beat him in his prime though.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Not Komen wrote:

Komen's kick was nothing special. Without someone else in the race to help him push the pace, he wouldn't beat Mo.

Komen beat one of the all-time sit and kick 5/10K runners in this video without anyone to help out with the pace. Bayi was also able to gap the kickers.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pi0GgnyG0UA

But Komen didn't kick to win. He won because Geb was fried.

Have to agree with your answer 100% . A strong runner would just have to press the pace to sap them in the later two-thirds of the race.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Not Komen wrote:

Komen's kick was nothing special. Without someone else in the race to help him push the pace, he wouldn't beat Mo.

Komen beat one of the all-time sit and kick 5/10K runners in this video without anyone to help out with the pace. Bayi was also able to gap the kickers.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pi0GgnyG0UA

This.

Komen didn't win his races by kicking. He won them by pushing insanely fast paces and breaking the field. He didn't need help doing it.

Interesting that the man who set the indoor 2 mile record and European 1500m record never "went for it" in his best events. If Mo was capable of running anywhere near the times of the 5k/10k greats, he would have done so. I'm not buying the "he only did what it took to win" excuse when he clearly wasn't afraid to chase fast times at other distances.

To beat Mo, you need to have a better position than him going into the final lap. Every one tries to sit on Mo's shoulder hoping to get him in the final stretch while he leads the entire final 400. To beat a 52.XX, you either need to have a lead on him, or close in a 51.XX. The Ethiopians proved this to be true by teaming up and challenging his from his positioning.

As for Centro in a 2016 year, they needed to have gone sub 3:30. However, Centro was very difficult to defeat in any circumstance in 2016. He had closed USA's in about 50.XX or 51.XX at a 3:34 pace to beat Robby Andrews. Would've taken a team effort similar to Manangoi and Cheruiyot in Worlds 2017 Final.

Str8 Facts wrote:

To beat Mo, you need to have a better position than him going into the final lap. Every one tries to sit on Mo's shoulder hoping to get him in the final stretch while he leads the entire final 400. To beat a 52.XX, you either need to have a lead on him, or close in a 51.XX. The Ethiopians proved this to be true by teaming up and challenging his from his positioning.

As for Centro in a 2016 year, they needed to have gone sub 3:30. However, Centro was very difficult to defeat in any circumstance in 2016. He had closed USA's in about 50.XX or 51.XX at a 3:34 pace to beat Robby Andrews. Would've taken a team effort similar to Manangoi and Cheruiyot in Worlds 2017 Final.

Keep in mind, these guys specifically train for that final 400 under Al Sal. Their entire training is geared towards getting to that final lap as efficient as possible and being able to change their bio-mechanics to that of a sprinter in the final 400. That is why these guys run well in a championship scene.

He is a 12:53 man, sorry wrote:

Interesting that the man who set the indoor 2 mile record and European 1500m record never "went for it" in his best events. If Mo was capable of running anywhere near the times of the 5k/10k greats, he would have done so. I'm not buying the "he only did what it took to win" excuse when he clearly wasn't afraid to chase fast times at other distances.

Well, that's exactly what he did - EVERY TIME. The number of guys he consistently beat whom had faster PRs then him is astounding......

HahaRiiiiiiight wrote:

He is a 12:53 man, sorry wrote:

Interesting that the man who set the indoor 2 mile record and European 1500m record never "went for it" in his best events. If Mo was capable of running anywhere near the times of the 5k/10k greats, he would have done so. I'm not buying the "he only did what it took to win" excuse when he clearly wasn't afraid to chase fast times at other distances.

Well, that's exactly what he did - EVERY TIME. The number of guys he consistently beat whom had faster PRs then him is astounding......

That's not evidence that he could have run faster than 12:53.

straightforward.. wrote:

What's the best strategy to beat sit-n-kickers like Centro or Farah?

Run a fast race.

Centro has never won a fast race in his life.

Not.

A.

Single.

One.

Stop overstating his abilities wrote:

If you think Mo was capable of mid 12:40s you're delusional. The Ethiopians would have dropped him with ease.

Why didn't the Ethiopians drop him the last 8 yrs then ?

the numbers are not adding up here

Gotta have a really fast pack to ration out the work. Won't get anywhere if you're running out alone

YMMV wrote:

1) be in 12:37 or 26:18 shape

2) a)run 12:37 or 26:18 from the front

b) throw in surges throughout the race and hope for the best

So, first off you have to be in better shape than Mo. If you're not, he holds every card. There is no answer. The best option then is just to sit and follow as efficiently as possible, make the race slower (more unpredictable) and hope that you have some amazing lucky day in the final 200m.

IF you are fitter, then you have more options.

Surges are dumb overall, unless you're significantly better and think you can actually crack the guy. If you're not significantly better, Mo just follows the surge, expending less energy in the draft and is fine. You wasted more energy. Each surge you do, that's repeated over and over. Moreover, surges increases the speed, thus the power needed to overcome wind resistance, and further increase the effect of the draft. If you're strong enough to surge Mo away, you're strong enough to just drop him with a straight pace right from the gun. The only benefit here is if you can mentally crack him by seeing effortless and controlled on the surges.

The only other thing you could do is a true attack like in cycling. Literal sprint, get a gap, be in PR shape and hold it. Hope the other guys won't do the work to close you down and instead slow down deciding who wants to run 12:50 pace that you're trying to run. If you're in close to Mo's shape, there is a small chance this can work, especially if there is infighting. If you're not in at least 12:45-12:50 shape...this has zero chance of ever working. The sprint will take something out of you and slow you down overall. If you're in 12:55 shape and try that you're going to run 13:10 or worse and have guys breathing down your neck.

The best, and only consistent option is just to be fitter than Mo. Come bring sub 12:40 or sub 26:20 game to town and drop him. Still might not be enough though. Drafting, on a good day, I think Mo could follow Bekele around to both of those times.

Centro and Mo are in the top 5 of greatest dopers ever. It doesn’t matter what the others do. They will lose.