Kip Keino and six other senior Kenyan officials charged with corruption

Too funny..."RekRunner et al." ?

Latest headline: "Criminal charges against Kenyan legend Keino set to be dropped after revealed he never received any money" You say millions, but looks like the real value is ZERO. You said "Coe has never been accused of using his position for personal financial gain" when in fact he was accused of using his position to lobby for a World Championship in Oregon, while reaping massive personal financial gain from Nike. You said "I would have no hesitation in believing that he was likely a doper in his career after all", but remained silent for the last few days. It is as retarded to link adultery to doping, as it is to link alleged corruption to doping. They both have the same relevance -- ZERO. But in Coe's case, we also have alleged corruption in a bidding process. Don't hesitate to conclude the worst.

Latest headline "Criminal charges against Kenyan legend Keino set to be dropped after revealed he never received any money" So, Keino's integrity is no longer on the line -- there goes one of your pillars. In any case, it is ridiculous to suggest that corruption influences the likelihood of doping, under the broad brush of "personal integrity". And it is contrary to suggest that other demonstrations of a lack of "personal integrity" are not equally relevant using the same broad brush. You lament that no one has rebutted your points. Speaking for myself, you have not yet established a point worthy of rebuttal. (I guess you meant "series of points" and not "serious".) You say "given the circumstances", while describing circumstances that are not given. Keino ran an amazing performance because he was no longer sick, and it was the Olympics, and Ryun pushed him to run a fast time. In any case, the drugs of the 1960s, or even the drugs of today, are not known to provide the kind of super-recovery you describe to produce super-normal performances. This kind of super-effect is part of the mythology of what drugs are believed to be able to do for performances. It is very common that athletes come back from temporary illness or minory injury running their best, because the illness forced them to reduce their training and recover, allowing them to arrive at the start line completely recovered, rather than slightly over-trained. Keino was less affected by altitude, due to high altitude residents developing lifelong adaptations to living and training in low oxygen environments. Keino did not achieve the same performance later, because he did not need to, in order to win, nobody was pushing him to run faster times, and most races are often tactical, producing slower times. You say "I'm against doping" -- a worthy and notable position, but one that fits very awkwardly in a thread that is about corruption, and not about doping or performance.

Coevett wrote:

The fact that Kenio gave money to charity doesn't exactly mean much. I don't know if it's the case in Kenya, but in a lot of countries you get tax breaks if you donate to charities. If he's guilty of corruption as charged, the fact he gave to charities means sod all to be honest. He's a extremely dubious, immoral character who will cheat his fellow athletes..

Although I’m one of those who have believed that this site would be better if you were excluded from it, I ‘m pleased that your ignorant an tel:98094591d

Barrel of Laughs wrote:

Coevett wrote:

And the people (RekRunner et al) who are claiming Coe's adultery has as much relevance to whether he doped as Keino cheating his own fellow Kenyan athletes for financial gain has to do with whether he doped, truly are retarded.

Too funny..."RekRunner et al." ?

Yes he really is the ghost of this place ?

Coevett wrote:

The fact that Kenio gave money to charity doesn't exactly mean much. I don't know if it's the case in Kenya, but in a lot of countries you get tax breaks if you donate to charities. If he's guilty of corruption as charged, the fact he gave to charities means sod all to be honest. He's a extremely dubious, immoral character who will cheat his fellow athletes..

Although I’m one of those who have believed that this site would be better if you were excluded from it, I‘m pleased that your ignorant and rather repulsive statements on this thread have given some of us the opportunity to set the record straight on certain matters. So you have proved, I suppose, to be something of a useful idiot.

Keino is not, of course, some hedge-fund billionaire who donates a tiny portion of his wealth to tax-deductible charities. Rather, he is one of the most honored and justifiably revered humanitarians in the entire world of Olympic sport, who forewent the riches given to other champion athletes to devote his life in service of others. Among other things, he and his wife have personally taken in hundreds of orphans to give them the chance of having a decent life, and they have done so at considerable personal sacrifice. That is not the path of a man who is just looking for tax breaks. (It’s also not the path of a serial liar and adulterer who got rich and powerful from a career as an “amateur” sportsman, politician, lobbyist, and personal aggrandizer. Since you are the one who sought to link misconduct and character in one area with misconduct and character in another — a view that I largely share — I thought I should just point that out.)

In 2016, the International Olympic Committee honored Kip Keino with the first-ever award of the Olympic Laurel for his outstanding service to others.

(Thanks to Miami/Gainesville Guy and others who have chimed in.)

Can't find an article but Kenyan media reporting charges against Kip Keino have been dropped and he'll be required no testify as a witness. Also make it clear that Keno was neither a signatory or recipient of the misappropriated funds. Thus ends another Coevett smear-the-Kenyans thread.

And for the record, the initial charge against Keino had nothing to do with enriching himself. It had been alleged that he had misallocated 2.5 million shillings ($24,960) in business class tickets and allowances for a bunch of officials including his son Ian who I think works in sports admin and management. Turns out he hadn't hence the dismissal.

https://mobile.nation.co.ke/sports/athletics/Keino-likely-not-to-stand-trial/3112514-4812608-npjs2f/index.html

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001299538/keino-turned-into-witness-as-wario-and-two-others-set-for-prosecution

Odly, in typically sensationalist manner of the Kenyan media, The Daily Nation had blasted a headline that Keino was on the run when in fact he was in Mexico City to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of those games and his run that turned Kenya into a running powerhouse and the subsequent object of hate from your run-of-the-mill racist types that infest these boards

https://www.kenyans.co.ke/news/34014-daily-nation-apologises-kipchoge-keino-over-claims-his-whereabouts

Ryun "pushed him to a fast time" in Mexico? The American was nowhere near Keino at any stage in the race, and his second place was the largest losing margin recorded in an Olympic 1500m final. It seems Ryun wasn't able to "push" Keino to a fast time in any of their races throughout the previous two years, when he repeatedly beat the Kenyan. I remember well their race in the Colisseum Relays in '67, when Ryun "pushed" - wait, demolished Keino in one of the greatest winning margins I had ever seen in a first class race over that distance - over 4 seconds, and it was all achieved in the last 250 metres. I repeatedly saw Keino run from '65 till Munich '72, and his tactics were much the same over the 1500m/mile - win or lose - and I saw him lose quite a few times to faster finishers - even though you might say he was being "pushed". You say he only ran as fast as he had to. Well, maybe he was content with second place a few times. Like in the Munich 1500m. You'll excuse me if I say I'm not particularly persuaded by the "pushing" theory, because it seems to apply as selectively as your argument.

As far as doping options were concerned in '68, there were quite a few. The Russians had been employing stimulants such as amphetamines (developed by the Germans for their troops in WWII) as far back as 1956. Performance boosters were routinely finding their way into sport by the early 1960's - the field events were rife with them, but there were also stimulants that aided stamina events such as cycling. I remember the British runner who finished second behind Keino in the '66 Commonwealth Games mile later admitted to doping for that race.

And, sure, as you say, altitude favoured Keino over his lowland competitors in '68 - but not as much as you think it did. Keino himself was much slower than his best time over 5k while - wait, for it - finishing second, despite being "pushed" in his favourite race. (He couldn't even finish the 10k).

And finally, yes, it's true that athletes can sometimes perform better after the enforced break following illness or injury, but that takes time and time is what Keino didn't have.

So for those of you who think Keino ran the race clean, how much faster do you think he might have run if he was doped? 3.32 or even 3.31? At altitude? In 1968? At 3.34 he was already two seconds faster than his best at sea level. Keino's Mexico 1500m is up there with Ben Johnson's 100m at Seoul. And we know how that turned out.

Are you 5 or something? wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

repeat what was written before

Dude, you're annoying AF.

You keep on writing the same thing over and over again.

Explanations were offered. You accepted none. Move on. Or don't move on but stop repeating the same f*cking things over and over again, asking people to answer your questions and then ignore their efforts to enlighten you.

Dude, enlightenment is not exactly your thing.

El Keniano wrote:

Odly, in typically sensationalist manner of the Kenyan media, The Daily Nation had blasted a headline that Keino was on the run when in fact he was in Mexico City to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of those games and his run that turned Kenya into a running powerhouse and the subsequent object of hate from your run-of-the-mill racist types that infest these boards

Can you name these racist, El Keniano?

Thank you for posting the details of Keino's post-athletic career. Most people on this thread are too young, or just not aware, of how he has lived his life.

I think Ryun's mononucleosis earlier that summer left him short of his 1967 form. And the Mexico City altitude certainly was to Keino's advantage. At sealevel and without the. mono, Ryun probably would have won. 5,000 meters or the steeplechase were probably Keino's better distances.

In my long career as a pretty good distance runner (before running was cool) and prep school coach and writer about running for the old Miami News from the late 70s to mid-'80s I got to meet, and sometimes to know, many of the elite runners of the era. I was well aware that they were the best in the world, or nearly so, in an endeavor I loved. But otherwise they were..... people. I liked most, not all. Only one awed me. Keino. He had a quiet dignity about him. As I recall, it was in the late '80s that American Airlines had flown several former greats to Miami. It was around the time he had been named one of SI's Sportsmen of the Year for his many years of caring for hundreds of Kenyan orphans. I realize that in real life there are very few true heros. I hope - I want to believe - that he is one.

I agree that without the mono and running at sea-level Ryun would probably have won - if he had been competing against the '67 Keino. But what do you think Keino's 3.34.9 at altitude was worth at sea-level? I would pick that it would be even faster than Ryun's then wr of 3.33.1. Maybe 3.32 or 3.31. Even in his '67 form, I very much doubt Ryun could have matched that. Keino's time at Mexico far exceeds anything he either previously or subsequently achieved. He didn't ever get close to that time at sea-level. It is a huge outlier - for him. That's what makes me doubt its authenticity. Putting aside your undoubted respect for the man, I would have thought your own experience as runner and commentator might have led you to wonder about it, too. We have seen too many superhuman feats in sport that have turned out to be attributable to something other than talent and hard work.

Thank you for responding reasonably and thoughtfully.

As I stated in an earlier post, doping back then was far less prevalent than today. I suspect Kenyan doctors had zero interest in such matters. They had far more urgent concerns in a country that had only recently fought for its freedom. And foreign doctors lacked the monetary motivation that lures them today.

Also, if Keino achieved such stunning results by cheating, why would he not have continued to cheat in the rest of his career.

My guess is that Keino's hopes were primarily focused on the 5,000 or 10,000 but when his gall bladder issues betrayed him, he had only the 1500 left. And he feared, with reason, Ryun's kick. So, yes, Ryun did push him to his fantastic time even though he never got close. Keino ran SCARED, with reason.

I guess my "pushing theory" could be complemented with all the reasons why runners don't PB in every race, particularly if the coaching is less than optimal, or the race tactics are poor. Did you just say that 1500m is not even his favorite event? You still have some work to do to flesh out some of your own theories. First, there is the "Keino's lack of integrity" theory -- which seems to be inapplicable now. Second, is the "corruption means doping is more likely" theory. This one is moot since charges have been dropped, but still an undeveloped theory. Third, is the "Keino was too sick to run" theory. Fourth, is the "only doping could cure the too sick Keino, while at the same time making him superhuman. What about all these doping options for everyone else? There were no Russians, East Germans, cyclists, or British runners in front of Keino or Ryun. Lastly, the "3:35 at altitude is superhuman" theory.

Barakus Obama wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

Odly, in typically sensationalist manner of the Kenyan media, The Daily Nation had blasted a headline that Keino was on the run when in fact he was in Mexico City to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of those games and his run that turned Kenya into a running powerhouse and the subsequent object of hate from your run-of-the-mill racist types that infest these boards

Can you name these racist, El Keniano?

You're having a laugh, right?

You've made a few observations that I might respond to. I acknowledge that corruption charges against Keino are not proof that he doped; but if he had shown a willingness to gain dishonest financial advantage in his sport - the corruption charges - that would be consistent with a willingness to gain dishonest advantage through doping as a competitor, although it doesn't prove that he doped. I linked the two issues because this began as a corruption story thread. Of course, if the corruption charges are thrown out then that part of the discussion becomes redundant.

My main point throughout I might phrase as a question: what would it take for you to speculate that a performance by an athlete - any athlete - was assisted by doping? More specifically, how much faster would Keino have had to run that day before you thought - wait a minute ...

I suspect that this is probably the essential differences between our positions. I can't prove Keino doped and don't say I can, but, with the benefit of hindsight, I have difficulty in finding his performance that day believable. You do.

Perhaps I might use an analogy: if at Tokyo four years earlier Snell had struggled in second in his favourite event, the 800m in about 1.46, had experienced illness and then run the equivalent of about 4 seconds faster than his best ever time to win the 1500 I would have concluded - regretfully - he was likely doped for that event. To me, that is what Keino's Mexico City performance looks like. (Bear in mind, an athlete doesn't need to be a career doper to have doped for a race).

As great as he was, Keino wasn't even the best miler/1500 man of his era - I don't think he actually ran a faster mile time than Snell - but his destruction of the field at Mexico was without parallel in his career - certainly over that distance. We know he was also affected by altitude because of his performance in the 5000m. What was his 14.05 for the 5k worth in the 1500 - 3.40ish? Yet he ran 3.34. When I see an athlete perform at a level that is far and away better than anything they have ever done - or will do - in their career, I have learned to be sceptical. Apparently, you are not.

Lastly, despite the fact that doping had yet to become the norm in middle and long distance events - that is the dubious achievements of subsequent generations - doping was available to runners in 1968 if they were prepared to make that choice. And if Keino doped at Mexico he almost certainly wouldn't have been the only one. It was becoming systemic amongst Eastern Bloc athletes.

Armstronglivs wrote:

As great as he was, Keino wasn't even the best miler/1500 man of his era - I don't think he actually ran a faster mile time than Snell - but his destruction of the field at Mexico was without parallel in his career - certainly over that distance. We know he was also affected by altitude because of his performance in the 5000m. What was his 14.05 for the 5k worth in the 1500 - 3.40ish? Yet he ran 3.34. When I see an athlete perform at a level that is far and away better than anything they have ever done - or will do - in their career, I have learned to be sceptical. Apparently, you are not...

While his 1500m olympic time was relatively good compared to his 5000m time I think that his 1500m time wasn't totally extraordinarily suspicious because in addition of having a mile PB of 3.53 (faster than Snell) he also was the best 3000m runner by definition with his 7:39.6 world record (1965). Compared to outlier Komen, it isn't superfast, but compared to alltime 2-5th and to the yearlists of almost any later year, it should be below 3:35 quality 1500m time.

In addition, while the sprint events tend to be faster at high altitude due to less air resistance and endurance events slower because of "thinner" air, there is a spot when there is generally no difference at altitude performance when compared to sea level. There was the 800 meters world record at the 1968 games and it isn't by a magnitude diffefent than 1500m.

Any "sweet spot" isn't universal because the physiological part is different between individuals and the idea of high altitude residents gaining a relative advantage is that they have gone the mechanism to adapt to exercise at high altitude and the their performance falls less vs. sea level. Keino had (possibly) high Hct but also high maximal pulmonary ventilation (as measured by Saltin and Åstrand) and correspondingly his saturation could've been less affected by the scarcity of oxygen at altitude.

In any case, athletes run to win at olympic games and not to clock good times and the real comparison is his 1500m gold vs. 5000m silver. If there is something dubious there, in the same token there is something suspicious when Zatopek didn't win both thr 5k and the 10k at the 1948 games.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Are you 5 or something? wrote:

Dude, you're annoying AF.

You keep on writing the same thing over and over again.

Explanations were offered. You accepted none. Move on. Or don't move on but stop repeating the same f*cking things over and over again, asking people to answer your questions and then ignore their efforts to enlighten you.

Dude, enlightenment is not exactly your thing.

I'm not the moron coming back and asking the same questions over and over again even after the answers have been given more than once.

Coevett wrote:

The Dutch doctor who took over Kenyan athletics in the late 50/60s made his entire career out of Kenyan success.

What's his name?

Have you got any proof that he did what you say?

Coevett wrote:

Keino would never have got into the position to embezzle millions of dollars out of the hands of athletes

You lie again, and again. Millions of dollars? What a joke. No one can take your posts seriously.

Coevett wrote:

The fact that Kenio gave money to charity doesn't exactly mean much.

It's not about giving money to charity. This is not your beloved UK. This is Kenya. TIA!

He took in and looked after more than 100 orphans!

What have you done to make the world a better place?

Coevett wrote:

Keino cheating his own fellow Kenyan athletes for financial gain

Lie!

The accusation has been dropped.