Kip Keino and six other senior Kenyan officials charged with corruption

Pro News/Info/Results History

Page 8 of 19

1 7 8 9 19

5 years ago 10/19/2018 12:02am EDT

re: El Keniano

El Keniano wrote:
Like I said, Keino was a fantastic athlete but staggeringly incompetent as an administrator. He may have been unaware of the mess he was presiding over but that could also just as well be Kenyans being in denial that their greatest sporting icon, with the saintly image, could be involved in such sordidness.
Anyway, it just hit me that Armstronglivs is really Coevett and this thread was a waste of my time. And no Kenyans had even heard of PEDs in 1968 when they were first discovering they could run better than the rest of the world, even with minimal facilities.

I am not Coevett. Similar posts - to the extent they occur - do not require the same author. I have run and followed the sport since the early sixties. I remember the Snell era well, and then the advent of Ryun and Keino. I saw many of their great races. I have followed all the champions since and I have been progressively dismayed to realise that so much of professional sport - not just running - in the last half century has been underwritten by doping practices, and not simply improvements in training, technique and nutrition. This understanding has come from research, and speaking with and knowing anti-doping officials as well as professional athletes and coaches. What the experts tell me is that doping is everywhere and the dopers are hard to catch. As disillusioning as it is, it has become impossible to separate the shadow of doping from all great sporting achievements in the modern era. We do not know what we can trust anymore. Professionalism - money - has changed everything, and the need to be recognised for achievement has also infiltrated the amateur ranks as well as masters and college levels. So doping can be found there, too. I know this from other sports I have closely followed. We are losing the battle against doping - if it hasn't been lost already. You may also find this hard to believe, but as a schoolboy Keino was one of my heroes. I remember well his fantastic run in Mexico. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I realise now I might have been right.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 12:27am EDT

re: rojo

rojo wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
But the main point of how Keino produces an out-of-the-box performance immediately after being laid up on his sick-bed is assiduously avoided. It can't be simply explained away.
So you are implying he doped?The logic of your argument makes no sense. You seem to be saying he was in bad form so he doped. But if was willing to dope for the 1500 then why didn't he also dope for his beloved 5000?
Or are you saying in the hospital he like unkowingly doped?

Rojo, my starting point for asking if doping is present is when I see a performance that isn't easily explained. If a runner comes off indifferent form to competing - overnight - at a previously unprecedented level that leap in performance is more easily explained as the result of a powerful booster or stimulant than trying to attribute it to the usual variation in form that occurs naturally in most athletes. The latter explanation doesn't adequately fit - or we would all be doing it, or seeing it. Its rarity is what gets our attention. (Like the performance of the Spanish team in Barcelona '92, when they recorded over 20 medals against the previous 2/3 in previous games). Sudden and extreme "spikes" in performance - in nations as well as individuals - are a red flag for doping. That must be even more so if the athlete has had immediate prior illness or injury. If that athlete then subsequently has an ethical question mark over their character, because of criminal charges levelled against them in relation to their involvement in a sporting culture where doping is prevalent, then - Houston, we have a problem. Certainly, questions can be asked. Why wouldn't have Keino have doped for the 5k? I don't know. But the prize in taking down his nemesis in the 1500 might have been enough. Also, if his form before the race had been poor (for him) then the incentive to dope undoubtedly becomes greater.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 4:07am EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
... so much of professional sport - not just running - in the last half century has been underwritten by doping practices, and not simply improvements in training, technique and nutrition. This understanding has come from research, and speaking with and knowing anti-doping officials as well as professional athletes and coaches. What the experts tell me is that doping is everywhere and the dopers are hard to catch. As disillusioning as it is, it has become... Keino was one of my heroes. I remember well his fantastic run in Mexico. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I realise now I might have been right.

Because stimulants were tested at the 1968 games and blood doping wasn't yet invented until a few years, it is not that clear what doping he used.

Steroids? The consensus view of the 1960's was that steroids improve only speed and strength type of efforts and even today it isn't that clear how much in real terms is the indirect benefit via increased training load.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 5:24am EDT

re: rojo

rojo, No one here is really interested in corruption, or if Keino was even involved, as alleged and charged. It was just a veiled excuse to accuse another Kenyan of doping. "I'm against dopers" is a notable sentiment, but hardly belongs in a thread about corruption. You can see in the opening post, this thread was only about corruption for only one sentence. By the second sentence, Coevett turns a corruption thread into a doping thread, by mentioning "failed tests", and in the third sentence, by mentioning "cloud of suspicion". The whole doping segway depends on connecting (allegations of) skimming money from athletes in 2016, and some stretched notions that 48 years earlier, 1) Keino was too sick too run, 2) that his run at altitude was super-normal, and 3) that only drugs (the low-octane drugs from 1968) could explain this. Somehow it's recognized as absurd to link adultery (don't trust him with your wife) to doping, but it is not absurd to link (alleged) corruption (don't trust him with your money) 48 years after the fact, to doping in order to help explain a 3:35 performance at altitude while Jim Ryun suffered.

rojo wrote:
So there is a 7 page thread on Keino being indicted but no one bothers to point out that an article today says he may not be arrested. Instaed he'll be a witness against others.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 6:13am EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
If I have misunderstood your point and you do think adultery suggests doping as much as corruption charges do, then you are simply constructing further argument against Keino. Otherwise you have to argue that not every form of cheating (including Coe's adultery) would be consistent with being a doper. But that isn't what you appear to be saying.

I would have thought that adultery would involve lying at least several times to those who you "love". If you have the capacity to do that, then would it be so difficult to lie to the general public about doping? I think that is the point he is getting at.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 6:30am EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
Ryun was the superior runner, as he proved time and time again before and after Mexico . . . .

Actually, during the eight-year stretch (1965-1972) in which Ryun and Keino were world-class 1500/mile runners, Ryun was ranked ahead of Keino only during his great two-year period of 1966-67. Keino was ranked first or second in the world in every one of those eight years; Ryun was ranked that high only during 1966-68. As for head-to-head matchups, Ryun was superior during 1966-67, but Keino otherwise finished ahead of Ryun in the majority of their races.

The suggestions that Keino’s achievements in Mexico City were enhanced by doping are about as unfounded as any such claims on this site about anyone, and reflect considerable ignorance about Keino’s career and, more particularly, his physical circumstances — both good and bad — leading into and during the Games. (The cited SI article was written after Keino’s relatively late start on the ‘68 racing season in Scandinavia, but apparently before — or without knowledge of — Keino’s racing in the weeks immediately preceding the Games and without knowledge of the apparent cause of his sudden and debilitating “stomach” cramping in several races.) It was by no means out of the question that Keino could win the 1500, 5000, and 10,000; his performance in the 1500 final was extraordinary, but hardly a feat explicable only by positing exogenous aids, his 5,000 performance was O.K., but certainly not better than expectations, and his cramping (apparently from a gallbladder infection) in the 10,000 after leading with two or three laps to go was quite unfortunate — he had recently run the third-fastest 10,000 in history, and obviously had the middle-distance speed to hang with any other 10,000-meter runner in a fast finish.

I’m heartened to see that the recent allegations against Keino appear to be much less substantial and more dubious than was originally suggested. Whatever his faults, Keino has been greatly under-appreciated among many casual and even quite a number of serious track-and-field fans who, like me, were captivated by Ryun’s performances during his early years. And Keino remains under-appreciated by many outside of Kenya who are unfamiliar with his humanitarian work, especially his incredible commitment to orphans. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve found that I care less and less about someone’s athletic performances and more and more about his fundamental decency and record of concern for others, and Keino strikes me as a man of whom Kenyans can be justifiably proud, so I hope he comes out of this well.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 6:37am EDT

re: Avocado’s Number

Avocado’s Number wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Ryun was the superior runner, as he proved time and time again before and after Mexico . . . .
Actually, during the eight-year stretch (1965-1972) in which Ryun and Keino were world-class 1500/mile runners, Ryun was ranked ahead of Keino only during his great two-year period of 1966-67. Keino was ranked first or second in the world in every one of those eight years; Ryun was ranked that high only during 1966-68. As for head-to-head matchups, Ryun was superior during 1966-67, but Keino otherwise finished ahead of Ryun in the majority of their races.
The suggestions that Keino’s achievements in Mexico City were enhanced by doping are about as unfounded as any such claims on this site about anyone, and reflect considerable ignorance about Keino’s career and, more particularly, his physical circumstances — both good and bad — leading into and during the Games. (The cited SI article was written after Keino’s relatively late start on the ‘68 racing season in Scandinavia, but apparently before — or without knowledge of — Keino’s racing in the weeks immediately preceding the Games and without knowledge of the apparent cause of his sudden and debilitating “stomach” cramping in several races.) It was by no means out of the question that Keino could win the 1500, 5000, and 10,000; his performance in the 1500 final was extraordinary, but hardly a feat explicable only by positing exogenous aids, his 5,000 performance was O.K., but certainly not better than expectations, and his cramping (apparently from a gallbladder infection) in the 10,000 after leading with two or three laps to go was quite unfortunate — he had recently run the third-fastest 10,000 in history, and obviously had the middle-distance speed to hang with any other 10,000-meter runner in a fast finish.
I’m heartened to see that the recent allegations against Keino appear to be much less substantial and more dubious than was originally suggested. Whatever his faults, Keino has been greatly under-appreciated among many casual and even quite a number of serious track-and-field fans who, like me, were captivated by Ryun’s performances during his early years. And Keino remains under-appreciated by many outside of Kenya who are unfamiliar with his humanitarian work, especially his incredible commitment to orphans. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve found that I care less and less about someone’s athletic performances and more and more about his fundamental decency and record of concern for others, and Keino strikes me as a man of whom Kenyans can be justifiably proud, so I hope he comes out of this well.

Excellent post. Thank you.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 7:09am EDT

re: booooobooooo

booooobooooo wrote:
Avocado’s Number wrote:
Actually, during the eight-year stretch (1965-1972) in which Ryun and Keino were world-class 1500/mile runners, Ryun was ranked ahead of Keino only during his great two-year period of 1966-67. Keino was ranked first or second in the world in every one of those eight years; Ryun was ranked that high only during 1966-68. As for head-to-head matchups, Ryun was superior during 1966-67, but Keino otherwise finished ahead of Ryun in the majority of their races.
The suggestions that Keino’s achievements in Mexico City were enhanced by doping are about as unfounded as any such claims on this site about anyone, and reflect considerable ignorance about Keino’s career and, more particularly, his physical circumstances — both good and bad — leading into and during the Games. (The cited SI article was written after Keino’s relatively late start on the ‘68 racing season in Scandinavia, but apparently before — or without knowledge of — Keino’s racing in the weeks immediately preceding the Games and without knowledge of the apparent cause of his sudden and debilitating “stomach” cramping in several races.) It was by no means out of the question that Keino could win the 1500, 5000, and 10,000; his performance in the 1500 final was extraordinary, but hardly a feat explicable only by positing exogenous aids, his 5,000 performance was O.K., but certainly not better than expectations, and his cramping (apparently from a gallbladder infection) in the 10,000 after leading with two or three laps to go was quite unfortunate — he had recently run the third-fastest 10,000 in history, and obviously had the middle-distance speed to hang with any other 10,000-meter runner in a fast finish.
I’m heartened to see that the recent allegations against Keino appear to be much less substantial and more dubious than was originally suggested. Whatever his faults, Keino has been greatly under-appreciated among many casual and even quite a number of serious track-and-field fans who, like me, were captivated by Ryun’s performances during his early years. And Keino remains under-appreciated by many outside of Kenya who are unfamiliar with his humanitarian work, especially his incredible commitment to orphans. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve found that I care less and less about someone’s athletic performances and more and more about his fundamental decency and record of concern for others, and Keino strikes me as a man of whom Kenyans can be justifiably proud, so I hope he comes out of this well.
Excellent post. Thank you.

+2.

But worth reinforcing that it's totally absurd to claim there was any kind of PED usage in Kenya back in the 1960s. But facts aren't the reason for this thread, more an attempt to discredit the entirety of Kenyan running.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 7:35am EDT

re: El Keniano

Was the performance of Kenyans too good to raise suspicions? Almost nobody at the time considered it something strange that high altitude residents performed better at the 1968 games when lowlanders had difficulties to acclimatize at altitude even after weeks of high altitude training. The problems were evident and the adaptation was very slow and according to one academic historical paper, it was even proposed that endurance events would be held at different location:

The British track and field team and former track men were most vocal in their opposition to holding the Games in Mexico City. British athletes expressed their displeasure in a letter to the London Times in April 1966. The athletes claimed the 7,500-foot altitude would hamper performances in endurance events and give athletes already living in high altitudes or training in them an unfair advantage. The athletes acknowledged that it was probably impossible to remove the Games from Mexico City now, but suggested that at least the endurance events be held at a separate, low-altitude location.

In another article there is also a conspiracy theory that the location was intentional in order to help the hosts (and Kenyans of course):

The suggestion also existed that the Mexican proposal of Mexico City had been deliberately chosen to confer an ‘unfair’ advantage upon Mexican competitors. Bannister later wrote: ‘The Mexicans have several charming characteristics which, as their guest, I could appreciate. But occasionally they fail to tell the whole truth because, sometimes rather delightfully, they think the truth may hurt a little. The truth about Mexico’s altitude hurts a lot.’

One should remember that there was rampant speculation about benzedrine use when Bannister broke the four mile barrier some 14 years earlier but here nothing overtly strange was seen.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 9:03am EDT

re: Avocado’s Number

Avocado’s Number wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Ryun was the superior runner, as he proved time and time again before and after Mexico . . . .
Actually, during the eight-year stretch (1965-1972) in which Ryun and Keino were world-class 1500/mile runners, Ryun was ranked ahead of Keino only during his great two-year period of 1966-67. Keino was ranked first or second in the world in every one of those eight years; Ryun was ranked that high only during 1966-68. As for head-to-head matchups, Ryun was superior during 1966-67, but Keino otherwise finished ahead of Ryun in the majority of their races.
The suggestions that Keino’s achievements in Mexico City were enhanced by doping are about as unfounded as any such claims on this site about anyone, and reflect considerable ignorance about Keino’s career and, more particularly, his physical circumstances — both good and bad — leading into and during the Games. (The cited SI article was written after Keino’s relatively late start on the ‘68 racing season in Scandinavia, but apparently before — or without knowledge of — Keino’s racing in the weeks immediately preceding the Games and without knowledge of the apparent cause of his sudden and debilitating “stomach” cramping in several races.) It was by no means out of the question that Keino could win the 1500, 5000, and 10,000; his performance in the 1500 final was extraordinary, but hardly a feat explicable only by positing exogenous aids, his 5,000 performance was O.K., but certainly not better than expectations, and his cramping (apparently from a gallbladder infection) in the 10,000 after leading with two or three laps to go was quite unfortunate — he had recently run the third-fastest 10,000 in history, and obviously had the middle-distance speed to hang with any other 10,000-meter runner in a fast finish.
I’m heartened to see that the recent allegations against Keino appear to be much less substantial and more dubious than was originally suggested. Whatever his faults, Keino has been greatly under-appreciated among many casual and even quite a number of serious track-and-field fans who, like me, were captivated by Ryun’s performances during his early years. And Keino remains under-appreciated by many outside of Kenya who are unfamiliar with his humanitarian work, especially his incredible commitment to orphans. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve found that I care less and less about someone’s athletic performances and more and more about his fundamental decency and record of concern for others, and Keino strikes me as a man of whom Kenyans can be justifiably proud, so I hope he comes out of this well.

Well, I get that you are a fan of Keino but your unqualified admiration of the man does nothing to address the question: how does an athlete (who isn't in their best form) virtually leave their sick bed to run, by far and away, the best performance of their life? And at 7,700 feet? Who else has done this? Keino's performance at altitude (3.34.9) would have almost certainly been a world record if run at sea level i.e. better than Ryun's 3.33.1 the previous year (where Keino finished over 4 seconds behind Ryun). Yet Keino never got close to Ryun's time at sea-level and his best ever time for the 1500 came at altitude. What other top runner has pr'd at altitude? We know altitude affected Keino, too, because in the 5000m he came second in a pedestrian (for him) 14.05 and yet at sea level he could run in the 13.20's. The odds against Keino's feat in the 1500m are incredibly long - even if he had been at peak fitness (he wasn't), if he had not been in a hospital bed before the race, and he had not already expended considerable effort in the 5k and the 10k (which he was unable to finish). It is an off-the-charts performance - for anyone. But more significantly, it was far beyond anything Keino had ever previously achieved and would ever achieve again. Beamon at least had the advantage of altitude, with reduced air resistance, but Keino defied it. The very thing that aided Beamon - the thinness of the air - should have left Keino gasping for oxygen, as it did everyone else in the distance events. His 1500m was a superhuman feat. Literally. A classic Tour de France performance.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 9:23am EDT

re: chrono judger

chrono judger wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
If I have misunderstood your point and you do think adultery suggests doping as much as corruption charges do, then you are simply constructing further argument against Keino. Otherwise you have to argue that not every form of cheating (including Coe's adultery) would be consistent with being a doper. But that isn't what you appear to be saying.
I would have thought that adultery would involve lying at least several times to those who you "love". If you have the capacity to do that, then would it be so difficult to lie to the general public about doping? I think that is the point he is getting at.

Yes, but that simply puts it in the same company of the corruption allegations against Keino, and so becomes an argument that Keino has doped. He doesn't intend that conclusion.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 9:42am EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
chrono judger wrote:
I would have thought that adultery would involve lying at least several times to those who you "love". If you have the capacity to do that, then would it be so difficult to lie to the general public about doping? I think that is the point he is getting at.
Yes, but that simply puts it in the same company of the corruption allegations against Keino, and so becomes an argument that Keino has doped. He doesn't intend that conclusion.

My point was that if you feel the immorality inherent in a person guilty of corruption makes them more likely to be a doper then you would have to feel that the immorality inherent in a person cheating on their wife makes them more likely to be a doper. I never commented on whether I held the first belief.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 4:08pm EDT

re: Avocado’s Number

Avocado’s Number wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Ryun was the superior runner, as he proved time and time again before and after Mexico . . . .
Actually, during the eight-year stretch (1965-1972) in which Ryun and Keino were world-class 1500/mile runners, Ryun was ranked ahead of Keino only during his great two-year period of 1966-67. Keino was ranked first or second in the world in every one of those eight years; Ryun was ranked that high only during 1966-68. As for head-to-head matchups, Ryun was superior during 1966-67, but Keino otherwise finished ahead of Ryun in the majority of their races.
The suggestions that Keino’s achievements in Mexico City were enhanced by doping are about as unfounded as any such claims on this site about anyone, and reflect considerable ignorance about Keino’s career and, more particularly, his physical circumstances — both good and bad — leading into and during the Games. (The cited SI article was written after Keino’s relatively late start on the ‘68 racing season in Scandinavia, but apparently before — or without knowledge of — Keino’s racing in the weeks immediately preceding the Games and without knowledge of the apparent cause of his sudden and debilitating “stomach” cramping in several races.) It was by no means out of the question that Keino could win the 1500, 5000, and 10,000; his performance in the 1500 final was extraordinary, but hardly a feat explicable only by positing exogenous aids, his 5,000 performance was O.K., but certainly not better than expectations, and his cramping (apparently from a gallbladder infection) in the 10,000 after leading with two or three laps to go was quite unfortunate — he had recently run the third-fastest 10,000 in history, and obviously had the middle-distance speed to hang with any other 10,000-meter runner in a fast finish.
I’m heartened to see that the recent allegations against Keino appear to be much less substantial and more dubious than was originally suggested. Whatever his faults, Keino has been greatly under-appreciated among many casual and even quite a number of serious track-and-field fans who, like me, were captivated by Ryun’s performances during his early years. And Keino remains under-appreciated by many outside of Kenya who are unfamiliar with his humanitarian work, especially his incredible commitment to orphans. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve found that I care less and less about someone’s athletic performances and more and more about his fundamental decency and record of concern for others, and Keino strikes me as a man of whom Kenyans can be justifiably proud, so I hope he comes out of this well.

At Last! It took until P.8 for someone to post this. (I broke my shoulder last week so only saw this thread today).

So far no one has noted that he was one of SI's Sportsmen of the Year in 1987, 15 years after he retired, for his humanitarian work.

From Wikipedia:

With his wife, Phyllis Keino, he has dedicated significant efforts to humanitarian work in Eldoret, Kenya. They have established the Lewa Children's Home for orphans, the KipKeino Primary School in 1999, and the Kip Keino Secondary School in 2009.[10]

For his work with orphans, he shared Sports Illustrated magazine's "Sportsmen and Sportswomen of the Year" award in 1987 with seven others, characterized as "Athletes Who Care". In 1996, he was inducted into the World Sports Humanitarian Hall of Fame

5 years ago 10/19/2018 5:31pm EDT

re: sketchy salazar

sketchy salazar wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Yes, but that simply puts it in the same company of the corruption allegations against Keino, and so becomes an argument that Keino has doped. He doesn't intend that conclusion.
My point was that if you feel the immorality inherent in a person guilty of corruption makes them more likely to be a doper then you would have to feel that the immorality inherent in a person cheating on their wife makes them more likely to be a doper. I never commented on whether I held the first belief.

But according to your logic, if I held the latter view then it is because I believe the former to be true. So you are still effectively strengthening the argument against Keino.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 5:37pm EDT

re: Gainesville/Miami guy

Gainesville/Miami guy wrote:
Avocado’s Number wrote:
Actually, during the eight-year stretch (1965-1972) in which Ryun and Keino were world-class 1500/mile runners, Ryun was ranked ahead of Keino only during his great two-year period of 1966-67. Keino was ranked first or second in the world in every one of those eight years; Ryun was ranked that high only during 1966-68. As for head-to-head matchups, Ryun was superior during 1966-67, but Keino otherwise finished ahead of Ryun in the majority of their races.
The suggestions that Keino’s achievements in Mexico City were enhanced by doping are about as unfounded as any such claims on this site about anyone, and reflect considerable ignorance about Keino’s career and, more particularly, his physical circumstances — both good and bad — leading into and during the Games. (The cited SI article was written after Keino’s relatively late start on the ‘68 racing season in Scandinavia, but apparently before — or without knowledge of — Keino’s racing in the weeks immediately preceding the Games and without knowledge of the apparent cause of his sudden and debilitating “stomach” cramping in several races.) It was by no means out of the question that Keino could win the 1500, 5000, and 10,000; his performance in the 1500 final was extraordinary, but hardly a feat explicable only by positing exogenous aids, his 5,000 performance was O.K., but certainly not better than expectations, and his cramping (apparently from a gallbladder infection) in the 10,000 after leading with two or three laps to go was quite unfortunate — he had recently run the third-fastest 10,000 in history, and obviously had the middle-distance speed to hang with any other 10,000-meter runner in a fast finish.
I’m heartened to see that the recent allegations against Keino appear to be much less substantial and more dubious than was originally suggested. Whatever his faults, Keino has been greatly under-appreciated among many casual and even quite a number of serious track-and-field fans who, like me, were captivated by Ryun’s performances during his early years. And Keino remains under-appreciated by many outside of Kenya who are unfamiliar with his humanitarian work, especially his incredible commitment to orphans. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve found that I care less and less about someone’s athletic performances and more and more about his fundamental decency and record of concern for others, and Keino strikes me as a man of whom Kenyans can be justifiably proud, so I hope he comes out of this well.
At Last! It took until P.8 for someone to post this. (I broke my shoulder last week so only saw this thread today).
So far no one has noted that he was one of SI's Sportsmen of the Year in 1987, 15 years after he retired, for his humanitarian work.
From Wikipedia:
With his wife, Phyllis Keino, he has dedicated significant efforts to humanitarian work in Eldoret, Kenya. They have established the Lewa Children's Home for orphans, the KipKeino Primary School in 1999, and the Kip Keino Secondary School in 2009.[10]
For his work with orphans, he shared Sports Illustrated magazine's "Sportsmen and Sportswomen of the Year" award in 1987 with seven others, characterized as "Athletes Who Care". In 1996, he was inducted into the World Sports Humanitarian Hall of Fame

And there were many who thought Lance Armstrong was a wonderful guy. None of this has anything to do with the question of whether Keino may have doped at Mexico City. It is conspicuous that none of the running experts here respond to any of the points that I make about Keino's performance. They can't. All any of you can say is what a great guy he is. And we know great guys could never dope. Or be charged with corruption.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 5:45pm EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
It is conspicuous that none of the running experts here respond to any of the points that I make about Keino's performance.

You missed it.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 7:32pm EDT

re: gsrfhnrt

gsrfhnrt wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
It is conspicuous that none of the running experts here respond to any of the points that I make about Keino's performance.
You missed it.

Well, that's easy to do when it doesn't actually hit the target. Remind me, what are the compelling points in rebuttal to the possibility that Keino doped his way to his win at Mexico?

5 years ago 10/19/2018 7:44pm EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Gainesville/Miami guy wrote:
At Last! It took until P.8 for someone to post this. (I broke my shoulder last week so only saw this thread today).
So far no one has noted that he was one of SI's Sportsmen of the Year in 1987, 15 years after he retired, for his humanitarian work.
From Wikipedia:
With his wife, Phyllis Keino, he has dedicated significant efforts to humanitarian work in Eldoret, Kenya. They have established the Lewa Children's Home for orphans, the KipKeino Primary School in 1999, and the Kip Keino Secondary School in 2009.[10]
For his work with orphans, he shared Sports Illustrated magazine's "Sportsmen and Sportswomen of the Year" award in 1987 with seven others, characterized as "Athletes Who Care". In 1996, he was inducted into the World Sports Humanitarian Hall of Fame
And there were many who thought Lance Armstrong was a wonderful guy. None of this has anything to do with the question of whether Keino may have doped at Mexico City. It is conspicuous that none of the running experts here respond to any of the points that I make about Keino's performance. They can't. All any of you can say is what a great guy he is. And we know great guys could never dope. Or be charged with corruption.

Many people accused Armstrong of cheating and a great many believed the accusations. Keino's integrity was unchallenged. So your comparison is fallaciuos and reflects either your bias or deep cynicism.

Others, including those who have experienced gall bladder attacks, have said they can be painful but, after they pass, recovery is swift and complete.

Doping may be too common in Kenya today, but in the '60 s Track was an amateur sport. Little financial incentive. And certainly far fewer doctors in that emerging nation with the expertise.

5 years ago 10/19/2018 10:58pm EDT

re: Gainesville/Miami guy

Gainesville/Miami guy wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
And there were many who thought Lance Armstrong was a wonderful guy. None of this has anything to do with the question of whether Keino may have doped at Mexico City. It is conspicuous that none of the running experts here respond to any of the points that I make about Keino's performance. They can't. All any of you can say is what a great guy he is. And we know great guys could never dope. Or be charged with corruption.
Many people accused Armstrong of cheating and a great many believed the accusations. Keino's integrity was unchallenged. So your comparison is fallaciuos and reflects either your bias or deep cynicism.
Others, including those who have experienced gall bladder attacks, have said they can be painful but, after they pass, recovery is swift and complete.
Doping may be too common in Kenya today, but in the '60 s Track was an amateur sport. Little financial incentive. And certainly far fewer doctors in that emerging nation with the expertise.

Sorry to break it to you but a person's integrity is certainly on the line if they are facing criminal charges relating to corruption. The issue is not whether doping was widespread in Kenya in the 60's but whether the nature of Keino's performance in the 1500 gives rise to the question of whether it could have been doped. I have made a whole serious of points about that in the thread but no one has addressed them, the chief of which is how does anyone explain such an outlier of performance. Given the circumstances in which it occurred - Keino's form, his state of health, his previous races at Mexico and the effects of altitude it is virtually up there with Beamon's jump - but without Beamon's advantages. Keino never got close to that kind of performance either before or after it. As I have said previously, at sea level it would have demolished Ryun's 3.33 world record. When Keino never broke 3.36 at sea level how did he find all those extra seconds that day (and only that day - he ran 14.05 in the 5k and didn't finish the 10k) in Mexico City?

5 years ago 10/20/2018 12:36am EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
repeat what was written before

Dude, you're annoying AF.

You keep on writing the same thing over and over again.

Explanations were offered. You accepted none. Move on. Or don't move on but stop repeating the same f*cking things over and over again, asking people to answer your questions and then ignore their efforts to enlighten you.

Page 8 of 19

1 7 8 9 19

Next Last

Reply Replying to

Username

Password

Leave the password field blank to post anonymously.

Post Preview

By posting you acknowledge that you have read and abide by our Terms and Conditions.

Remember me on this device.

Kip Keino and six other senior Kenyan officials charged with corruption

Of General Interest

This thread has already been deleted.

You have been subscribed.

Kip Keino and six other senior Kenyan officials charged with corruption

Jump To A Page

Follow Armstronglivs

Block Armstronglivs

Follow Armstronglivs

Block Armstronglivs

Follow Aragon

Block Aragon

Follow rekrunner

Block rekrunner

Follow El Keniano

Block El Keniano

Follow Aragon

Block Aragon

Follow Armstronglivs

Block Armstronglivs

Follow Armstronglivs

Block Armstronglivs

Follow Armstronglivs

Block Armstronglivs

Follow Armstronglivs

Block Armstronglivs

Follow Armstronglivs

Block Armstronglivs

Follow Armstronglivs

Block Armstronglivs

Jump To A Page

Of General Interest

This thread has already been deleted.

Reply Replying to

You have been subscribed.