FIVE More Kenyan Runners Suspended

I'm worried that it might turn into a Burr-Hamilton type duel.

well that changed really fast....

and yes one day i would like to travel to kenya, i think ethiopia more so just cause the places i have seen on blue planet or national geographic look so incredibly beautiful. back when i was in high school (my dad coached me) his big dream was to go to kenya or ethiopia and coach, he did the compassion international and sponsored a girl, i dont know i think she was an orphan, but he sent her money for books, paid her schooling tuition and cloths. she sent him a thank you card each time school started and a picture, and then again at christmas.

glad you calmed your sh*t down, trust me i am far from a bully, i was bullied all the way till 9th grade, dont know if it was people finally grew up or what.

but i will continue to argue against anyone who claims PEDs dont work or kenyans dont dope or EPO is a placebo. that doesnt make me a bully. and i would have to say i am now treated waaaay differently now that i admitted who i was, what i ran, where i went to college and what degrees i got. i have been banned, deleted, physically threatened countless times starting back in 2016, when rek and renatos crusade that kenyans dont dope, then it changed to EPO doesnt work. if you could have seen all the violent, brutally offensive and insulting things that were said to me you would see that i was bullied, and then when i defended myself i was deleted, then banned. so you tell me, if EPO is so worthless why did so many go so hard to keep me, subway and casual silent?

m!ndweak wrote:

well that changed really fast....

and yes one day i would like to travel to kenya, i think ethiopia more so just cause the places i have seen on blue planet or national geographic look so incredibly beautiful.

Please pick Ethiopia.

You've made some strides on these doping forums Chad. I would agree you're treated much differently now - Canova seems to treat you with some respect, Aragon talks to you on a different level than most of the rest of us, and it even appears that the skeptic rekrunner is listening. You might be the new "go-to guy" on the scientific aspect of EPO & endurance athletes.

Here's my take wrote:

m!ndweak wrote:

and i would have to say i am now treated waaaay differently now that i admitted who i was, what i ran, where i went to college and what degrees i got

You've made some strides on these doping forums Chad. You might be the new "go-to guy" on the scientific aspect of EPO & endurance athletes.

So who is this new guru called Chad who may become "the new "go-to guy" on the scientific aspect of EPO & endurance athletes." and is respected by Canova and others?

keep up your a few weeks behind now

and im not some guru, but i will search and find scientific articles, medical research papers, and read other peoples links to try and become educated on the EPO dilemma, instead of calling all of it BS and fallacy etc.

the difference between me and the deniers and apologists and why i think i am treated differently are these

- i have been called out since 2016, mocked insulted, ridiculed, verbally and physically threatened, and pages worth of comments deleted, and banned.

- i have been accused of having some hidden agenda and mocked about how i was never a runner nor educated. finally rek and jon0 mocked me and called me a coward to to step up and admit who i was and "walk the walk" as it was said.

so i did, i admitted who i was, where i went to college, what times i ran, who was the coach, my PRs and what degrees i got from said college. after that only one person continued to mock and talk sh*t all the while remaining anonymous. i never lied and pretended to run faster than i did, nor did i ever lie about going to some "mid level D1" with "something science degree" nor did i ever lie about where i lived or anything. i have nothing to hide, i have no hidden agenda and i am not some doping apologist or denier. i dont claim to have PhD knowledge about thermoregulation and physics and call people idiots and morons. i do have a BS in exercise physiology, and my knowledge of EPO was pretty basic as most on here till very recently that i found the paper on the effects of rhEPO on mitochondria, and then did some reading into how exactly rhEPO was made, and that was very interesting. but of course the nay sayers still continue to claim that rhEPO is futile and makes only small increases to your RBCs that can be matched from small stints at altitude.

im not the kind of person who just accepts things because someone with a reputation claims thats how things are. there has been too many busts from EPO since 2000, there have been way to many runners on it, lance was, etc...to many high profile runners getting busted, WR holders, olympic champs, top 3 runners time was in an event, BIG names for EPO to be a placebo. then there are people on here who cherry pick articles, discredit others when they have no authority or education to make such brash statements, and then NEVER look into WHY or HOW, just DENY. when you have renato as a big time coach, around runners who HAVE doped like kiprop, sumgong, and jeptoo and he preaches against what 20 years of use, scientific articles have shown, the countless top tier runners going down and his rival ROSA having so many of his stable busted and kenya being in the forefront of the doping problem since 2012 and he claims EPO doesnt work and anyone who says is a moron, and the researches are dumb and he knows more. this is a huge problem. he hasnt once scorned any of the runners or rosa, but defended rosas when he was arrested. think about that.

then you have people like elK claim im racist cause he doesnt remember when i did all the research into why the hell NOP would be doing macro dosing of vit D, L-caratine and thyroid meds. doesnt matter cause those were deleted as well.

the cocktail for those who can afford it has been the same since the late 90s, only thing really changing is instead of IGF-1, they have up graded to IGF-1lr3

the cocktail? THG aka the clear, EPO, IGF-1lr3.....and those NOP and the like are also on thyroids, vit D and L-caratine, to help the micro dose and to keep their thyroid and kidneys in check

for the lesser they do clen, EPO, anavar/winstrol, nandro, and blood thinners

people have been taking PEDs since they came out, if they didnt work people would have walked away long ago. arnold and sly didnt get biceps like that and 3% body fat off of faith and placebos. they work, people take them and usually the ones who deny that they work are the same ones abusing or pushing them. go to any gym in the US and find the big time meat heads and ask them, 99% of the time they will lie to you and give you the GNC lie on diet and protein shakes and hard work...but they wont tell you the truth that they are saucing hard. why? cause when people know they are "cheating" they lose credibility on their knowledge of training and workouts.

so why would people on LR claim PEDs dont work? well my guess is they have something to lose. elK eventually had to admit to kenya doping, but why was he against it for so long? cause he has something to lose, his heros were cheating, his country isnt this SUPER human race of runners as has been told for the last 20yrs. yeah it sucks, it sucked to realize MJ was a sauced out douche, same with maurice green, and all the others. would i like a clean sport? yes, but how? there are too many protected runners, too much money involved, bribes, lies, cover ups. but maybe just maybe we can get things down to more of a level playing field, keep runners interested instead of giving up because of fake times....when things come back to reality hopefully 3:35 is elite again, 13:10 is elite again, 2:08 is elite again. too many on here have become brainwashed to think that those are SUB elite scrub times, when they were ELITE until mid 90s when EPO ruined the distances. now the iaaf thinks they cant have people "regress" or else they have to admit EPO was a huge problem, they did try and say they would erase records from 2005 and below to try and erase the EPO era but when ratcliff cried they back tracked. start over period, 2019 is the start of new WR's, make it a 2 yr ban for low level doping and 4yr ban for first time EPO offence, 2nd offence is life time ban....ban a coach/agent if that person has more that 2 people busted, no more lying allowed

-toothpaste, no your banned

-rouge masseuse, no your banned

-tainted beef, no your banned

-epo doesnt work im kenyan, no your banned

-i had no idea sumgong, jeptoo, and kiprop where on EPO...no your banned from the SPORT

-no more tyson gay sh*t either...oh i will help give up names or something i promise i didnt mean to take PEDs...NO your banned unless you fully fully fully spill beans

-no more of this sh*t where 3/4 of the relay team gets busted by MJ or Bolt are clean and keep the medal...no team is DQ, time is revoked, anyone on that relay team is banned from relays for 2 yrs

-no more Jr olympics without ability to fully prove your of age, if a country is shown to be doing age cheats, that country is banned for 2 yrs

no more getting mad at the media when confronted on doping....like come on gatlin etc, you doped you cant mouth off. the whole sport is a circus, but when the media is soft on the athletes, marcus bock is VIP, when rosa is protected, when mo can miss tests, when tainted beef is an ok excuse, when al sal can forge prescriptions and mail thyroid meds in a cut out book.....when kenyans drop left and right from EPO and the self proclaimed guru authorities says it doesnt work this sport has a problem

m!ndweak wrote:

... the difference between me and the deniers and apologists and why i think i am treated differently are these

- i have been called out since 2016, mocked insulted, ridiculed, verbally and physically threatened, and pages worth of comments deleted, and banned.

- i have been accused of having some hidden agenda and mocked about how i was never a runner nor educated. finally rek and jon0 mocked me and called me a coward to to step up and admit who i was and "walk the walk" as it was said.

This is not an attempt to play the victim card, but the claim that "deniers and apologists" are the nasty people and the "non-deniers and non-apologists" have the moral high ground is not necessarily true, because here is a list of my presumed motivations and ad hominem attacks against me from a few regular posters who have a high opinion about you. These comments have had practically zero to do with anything about the arguments discussed in the threads where are:

- "Lance Fanboy",

- "obviously pro-doping",

- "a pretentious self-proclaimed 'expert'",

- "defender of a career doper",

- "naïve",

- "Russian doping sympathizer",

- "trying to undermine & minimize the effects of EPO & steroids",

- "supports PED use with Russian track & distance runners",

- "has delusions of grandeur"

I did not call you a coward or ask you to admit who you were. You still have serious comprehension issues.

m!ndweak wrote:

finally rek and jon0 mocked me and called me a coward to to step up and admit who i was and "walk the walk" as it was said.

m!ndweak wrote:

some interesting stuff but...

Honest question here, Chad. A few posters (maybe just one but on several occasions and under different names) claimed you are a hypocrite because you say you admire Bekele even though you think he is a doper. Is this true?

ssssssssgggggg wrote:

m!ndweak wrote:

some interesting stuff but...

Honest question here, Chad. A few posters (maybe just one but on several occasions and under different names) claimed you are a hypocrite because you say you admire Bekele even though you think he is a doper. Is this true?

was bolt exciting to watch? doped or not you were memorized like everyone else

el G was beautiful to watch, same with lagats perfect stride, same with kipketers stride...thats beautiful running form doped or not

why did i love watching kb run? well unlike super boring MO, kb went after it, HUGE lead didnt matter he kept pouring it on. he wasnt a coward. what is more fun to watch doped or not...a coward sit and kick mo style or a guy like pre who poured it on in a 5k at 2000m, and still dropped a 52 at the end.

was he doped? yes im sure he was sauced to the max, like geb and komen...and "i cant hear my doorbell cause im busy getting an injection from aden" farah.

but who was fun to watch? kb was. how does that make me a hypocrite? bolt was amazing to watch but yes im sure he was sauced to the max...who is boring to watch? gay, gatlin, powell they were boring...you know who was exciting? xavier carter

boring = mo and rupp, gay gatlin, caster

exciting = geb, kb, yes even eliud, van niekerk

im sure if i was around back in the Pre days i would have enjoyed his style

i dont understand how saying i like a runner makes me a hypocrite. no to make me a hypocrite would be me saying my fav runner is my fav cause he was clean...like the people who claim coe is and was the only clean runner ever. hermens is just like the other europeans in east africa as far as im concerned, but that doesnt mean kb wasnt poetry in motion. if EPO is in fact a 30 secondish gain in 5k, that still puts him at low 1300's

but can you explain your insult at me on how im a hypocrite? paula ratcliff was ugly as hell to watch run, rupp is boring, webb was ugly but inspiring, lagat was silky, bolt was jaw dropping...dope or not

Michael Jordan was amazing to watch play basketball, but he was a serial cheater on his wife, addicted to gambling and whatnot, and appears to be a self centered aa$$hole. am i praising his life or his actions? no just in awe of his skills on the court, that doesnt make me a hypocrite.

so please explain how i am a hypocrite for liking a runner cause of how they look, compete when running

Thumb up for this post.

So what is your problem with dopers Chad? Everyone dopes, so nobody is gaining an edge. Or?

problem with dopers, are deniers and apologists try to tell us how dumb we are and so and so and so are clean, and only .01% are using PEDs.

think of it like this, when i was in elementary school we had a black kid move to town, and being myths and such the kid was automatically desired by all the little league coaches, rumors started "i heard he can dunk already" etc, kids on the play ground always tried to pick him first for everything, and thats when i first heard "black people have an extra muscle in their legs thats why they are better at sports"

turns out the kid was super uncoordinated but prob enjoyed the instant popularity he received.

move on to hs, growing up small schools our team and the teams in our league rarely competed with black kids, but the damage from elementary was too strong. if a black kid was in a heat with any of these kids, they automatically decided that the black kid was going to win and they were already defeated. our basketball team lost 4 games in hs, but even still kids in the hs would claim because denver christian or denver lutheran had black kids on the team we would lose.

maybe this isnt the best analogy but hopefully you get the picture, if 99% of the running world gives up before the race ever starts cause east africa has been given the green light to EPO their balls off what happens? if they all believe the myth that kenyans are SUPER HUMAN superior to them and they are racing for "first white person" or "first asian" how sad.

eurpeans dont have an issue with believing they can compete with americans in basketball, and dominate in soccer. but how many dont even bother with track and field when its told, blacks are faster and kenyans are SUPER HUMAN. then when you see the realization that so many impressive things have happened from the saucing then what? then the excuses, tainted beef, hookers, toothpaste, oh and we are so much better at running EPO doesnt work for us.

do you think the sport with survive when europe stops giving a sh*t? where are all the big meets? where are all the big marathons? europe. if europe stops caring, then so will the sponsors, no sponsors no money, no money...no one running..you get it?

you really think a dodgy euro agent is going to work hard on EPOing the next bada$$, getting him a visa and plane tickets if the london marathon doesnt pay out any money? no it wont happen.

is it kenyans fault they have lots and lots of depth? no, but the myth that they are hundreds that are 15 seconds faster than any white or asian at 5k, or hundreds of sub 3:33 guys, or their once a week runner who is overweight and smokes cigs is still doing a 2:08 marathon....these myths cause people to give up before they start. and if the reality is kenya just has more 3:39 guys and 2:10 guys than everyone else but its that they dope and drop to 3:30 and 2:05 then you see an issue.

german fernandez was a great talent, 3:55 indoor mile, 13:20s and 3:39.....if he had sauced and it worked (yes i know it doesnt work) then all the sudden german would have been a 3:47, 12:50, 3:30.....now all the sudden he is right there with the super humans, but instead he was frail and injured and gave up.

gabe jennings 3:35, maybe he could have run 3:28? but instead he was just a 3:35 guy who is a dime a dozen in kenyan. doping skews the graph and causes people to think what used to be world class is now D league, and when things go slow its not cause people are laying off the sauce its cause things are tactical, and when there used to be sub 3:30s at any given meet its now only monaco, and the excuses continue.

the great rift valley runs up and down a long way, yet the only place where there are SUPER HUMAN runners is where there is also a doping problem. where are the hundreds and hundreds of tanzanians? the mass of ugandans? sudanese? zambians?

how is it Mo was unstoppable over the super humans, yet he is from low lying somalia, and raised in sh*tty low lying terrible weather britain? how is it paul terrible running form is leaps and bounds better than anyone from the super human countries? some have even gone down from EPO doping.

two countries with SUPER HUMAN runners and a myth of dominance, two countries with doping problems, two countries with ex european coachces/runners/agents who perpetuate the myth, one coach happens to have multiple top runners busted for, yes EPO.

elK will argue but the west has to micro to avoid the testers, russia just bribed, jamaica just bribed.

NOP is doing micro with some serious science behind it, rek and jon0 would hate it, real science to compete lolz

anyone saying that europe cant compete and the so called "EPO" era even proves it is naive....spanish guys running 3:27.....on monacos track how fast would that be?

anyways i dont want doping, and i dont want people having to subjugate themselves to myth, urban legend etc. humans are so genetically similar there shouldnt be "dominate races", and if thats the case then why are there so many people today disgusted with hitlers notion of an aryan race....i dont know if you guys remember but jesse owens pretty much destroyed that myth by himself

And I didn't call you a hypocrite, the other guy(s) did.

"A few posters(...)claimed you are a hypocrite " - not me.

I just wanted to understand what it was all about. I do now. Thanks.

Chad who? - Just askin'. wrote:

Here's my take wrote:

You've made some strides on these doping forums Chad. You might be the new "go-to guy" on the scientific aspect of EPO & endurance athletes.

So who is this new guru called Chad who may become "the new "go-to guy" on the scientific aspect of EPO & endurance athletes." and is respected by Canova and others?

Sorry I asked.

Oh yeah, still don't know who Chad is and whether he's the new guru and if I should be hanging off every word he posts, lets face it, there are a lot of them (witness the last few posts).

If we move forward three years, do the stats tell the same story?

http://www.thelongrun.com.au/systematic-doping-in-kenya-the-stats-tell-the-story/

Chad who? - Just askin'. wrote:

Chad who? - Just askin'. wrote:

So who is this new guru called Chad who may become "the new "go-to guy" on the scientific aspect of EPO & endurance athletes." and is respected by Canova and others?

Sorry I asked.

Oh yeah, still don't know who Chad is and whether he's the new guru and if I should be hanging off every word he posts, lets face it, there are a lot of them (witness the last few posts).

Well...have you gone back and read his posts? ? His LRC user name is "m!ndweak" and on a couple of posts on the "Alex Hutchinson calls out Canova" thread, he's given his college and academic credentials, and his times when he ran D-2. He tells like it is. And you don't have to hang off every word he posts, but at least you got someone else to listen to other than those ad nauseam trolling posts by rekrunner. ?

stats man wrote:

If we move forward three years, do the stats tell the same story?

http://www.thelongrun.com.au/systematic-doping-in-kenya-the-stats-tell-the-story/

No.

From the 2015 article above :

In a nutshell,

13 (34%) of 38 individual Russian 800m or 1500m women have either tested positive or been recommended by WADA to serve a life ban.

.....Of the 47 different Kenyan male 800m & 1500m runners, none has tested positive.

As I posted recently, with the latest 800m runner getting suspended last month, 3 out of the top ranked 19 Kenyan 800m runners in 2017 are now serving suspensions. A fourth (Ferguson Rotich) was sent home in disgrace from Rio in 2016 after his coach pi$$ed a urine test for him.

All 3 busts came this year, when as somebody else put it - 'testing standards in Kenya have gone from piss poor, to merely poor.' The first WADA lab has only just opened in Kenya.

Not to mention that the team manager for the Rio Olympics is supposed to be standing trial for running a systematic doping ring for top athletes out of an Eldoret hospital wing that was officially opened by David Rudisha several years ago, who in his speech boasted it would provide Kenyan athletes with 'everything they need'.

Or that the manager of one of those 800m runners (Nicholas Bett) was the manager for this year's Commonwealth Games, despite one of his female junior athletes being suspended for EPO use and then dying age 20.

Maybe Jonathan Gault can ask this guy (the manager of David Rudisha) whether he still thinks there is no comparison to Russia to be made in the light of three elite Kenyan middle-distance runners failing tests in the last 8 months?

^ Alternative facts. How can literally every single point made in a post so long be flat out wrong? Must take special effort.