Manzano = Jordan

Age doesn't matter to me...I'm a real runner, a 22 year old 1:50 800m runner who is amazed at anyone that breaks 1:50 no matter what their age. He's still run faster than Jonathon Riley or Don Sage did their entire collegiate career...in his first year i might add. Faster than Gouch or Gruber until they were 25, Less than a second off Lunn's best ever, 5 seconds faster than Ritz has ever run, fast than Grant Robison ran until he was 25, fast than Stember until he was 22, 5 seconds faster than Torres has ever run. I know some of these guys arent 1500m runner but still, just wanted to throw out a few names. I'd say he's on a pretty good pace... If youre not impressed with a 20 year old running 3:37 in his freshman year to win NCAA's.....what are you?

Bad analogy, but haven't coaches been guilty of MUCH worse? He's a great runner no matter what age and I wish him the best of luck.

First you say that age doesn't matter to you, then you point out how impressive his achievement is by comparing his age to the ages of other top American runners. Clearly age does matter. To end this stupid debate, let's just agree that Manzano's feat as a 20 year old true freshman is damn impressive, and (though hardly relevant) would possibly be slightly more impressive if he was 18 or 19.

i know... i hate coaches who get excited about their runners and talk about how much they love coaching them and how much potential they have. what the hell is the matter with that guy.

Flagpole Willy wrote:

2) To ever ask someone how fast they are as you just did in an effort to slience them is ridiculous. Too many of you people here do it. Runners who are faster than we are can still be critiqued. Can you not be upset with the President of the United States for things he does? Have YOU ever been the President of the United States?

Ugh. Yes, it matters. If I really wanted to be President (or, let's say, elected to the House) really badly, but suck to the degree that I couldn't get elected student council representative of my high school homeroom, it's rather laughable for me to say the President, or a member of the House, sucks at politics.

Now, if you follow Flagpole, Bekele is the President, Leonel Manzano is a member of the House, and Letsrunners like you suck to a degree that you couldn't get elected student council rep of your homeroom in terms of running acumen.

i think vig is saying that leo is planning a nba or nhl career. what a idiot. and to think that he is getting all this credit for manzano... he would be ass coach of the year if he could get his runners to run consistantly. .. . thats rare at ut

So, you're saying that only people who have been President or perhaps some high elected office can criticize the President? What a foolish thing to think. Even though most of us are not fast enough to compete for an NCAA title or the like, many of us are still students of the sport and can recognize when someone perhaps went out too fast or didn't go soon enough or what have you. We don't need to be able to run a sub 4 minute mile to be critical of someone's race even though they have run sub 4. That's ridiculous. Teachers in all disciplines often have students who are more accomplished then they ever where, but that doesn't mean an objective set of eyes isn't helpful.

Anyway, I'm not interested enough in this topic to continue, so go ahead if you like; I'll let you have the last word. Just that it will be wrong, because you are wrong here.

gustave flaubert wrote:

Now, if you follow Flagpole, Bekele is the President, Leonel Manzano is a member of the House, and Letsrunners like you suck to a degree that you couldn't get elected student council rep of your homeroom in terms of running acumen.

running fast = leg speed

knowing a lot about running = brain power

the two are independent.

I hope you are kidding. He runs smart based upon his best chance at winning. I call that a great racer. If you doubt his manhood think about this - he is a freshman and he had the balls to get after it his last 400m. In the end it was not even close. Great job Leo and great job to Vig in preparing him.

im really starting to hate letsrun.

a guy wins ncaas as a freshman and we;re arguing about his level of accomplishment.

Byers had that type of talent. he was an absolute monster

Bob Kennedy won NCAA cross-country nationals as a freshman. How many freshmen, red-shirt or otherwise, have won NCAA cross-country and/or track titles. Sprints/jumps/throws titles aren't especially relevant but are welcomed. Relays don't really matter as much. So let's start the list (just to see how impressive the accomplishment is, if it is at all, based on a. development and ability (either years running or "pure talent) and b. racing experience (how race saavy you are or aren't)).

Bob Kennedy

Leo Manzano

prefontiane won the 5000m in 1970, just to get your list going

Oh and David Kimani in '99 won ncaa cross country as a frosh but he was even older than Manzano I think

work ethic wrote:

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated failures. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." --- Calvin Coolidge 1872

Calvin Coolidge was BORN in 1872. Talk about accomplishing a lot at a young age. He was pretty perceptive for someone under the age of one . . .

Sure, you can "recognize" all you want. The point is, being a so-called and self-appointed "student of the sport" doesn't make you a teacher (McDonnell, Wetmore, Lananna, Vigil, perhaps now Vig, etc). What it makes you is a washed-up never-was with a contagious case of diarrhea of the keyboard. Since if you could run as fast as Manzano, you'd be too busy competing with him to criticize.

Ever notice how Malmo and Hodgie-san never came here and criticized fast runners? They were fast. You weren't. End of story!