World Champion Emma Coburn Expresses Doubt that Beatrice Chepkoech's World Record in Steeple is Clean

Subway Surfers wrote:

Beatrice Chepkoech is managed by Jos and coached by Som, the same combo that brought us Aregawi.

Som- now THERE is a guy with incentive to be doped senseless. Never tested yet makes $$$$$ from pro pacing (at which he is inarguably THE BEST).

Actually, people note that you don’t apply the same scrutiny or ask the same questions to runners / groups that you like versus those you don’t. It’s your right to do that but people just note the different approaches that you take. , Also, this site has been very warm and accommodating to Canova and the Italian coaches who coach in Kenya and Ethiopia so people should not say that LRC is too hard on Kenya’s /Ethiopians overall. As with Americans, there seem to be different appraoaches based on the relationships over the years.

wejo wrote:

tartarm wrote:

Bull crap jon. You know it.

LR is too busy trying to be American runners buddies instead of being journalists

Totally false. We're constantly accused of having an anti-NOP bias and anti-Galen Rupp bias because we let people question whether there performances are dirty.

Hyvin Kiyeng has this annoying sideways tilt over barriers that I think costs her valuable time and energy. If she could work on that, she too could go sub 8:50.

http://medias.photodeck.com/043d611d-7ba5-475a-9700-398eb03c5a1f/az_beijing_day05_1592a_xgaplus.jpg

https://ioneglobalgrind.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/14712855436779.jpg?quality=85&strip=all

http://dailysport.co.ke/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Beatrice-Chepkoech-clears-the-hrdle-followed-by-Hyvin-Kiyeng.jpg

It's pretty easy to single out dopers. You just need to identify outlier performances with respect to the made up distribution of clean performances in your head. Seems legit to me.

Also notice from that last picture the difference in Beatrice's technique in 2016 vs how she does it now.

I think you remember wrong.

I just found this thread:

9 pages of posts on Jager being listed on the "likely doping" spreadsheet and I can see there are..... 2 Deleted posts in the entire thread.

We did do a podcast with Jager and write-up an article.

Which Kenyan groups have we been super hard on? Just because there are posters that blast them doesn't mean we have. I don't subscribe to the all Kenyans are dirty idea at all, but can't think of grilling any of the groups. We don't have a ton of access to the Kenyans like we do with the Americans.

I was very suspicious of Sumgong yet when to Kenya with an open eye and was going to write an article on how they said they could have such improvement and be clean. Then she tested positive in the interim.

But please point out where LetsRun has hated on Kenyans or Ethiopians.

As for Canova, he posts on here. Jager did a podcast and answered all the questions. I think you'll find generally that people who present their own version of events are viewed more favorably. If they don't answer questions, then the narrative in people's mind is more negative.

And generally journalists like getting information and dislike it when people keep it from them.

It's fair to say Alberto Salazar and us have a frosty relationship. He had his lawyer ask for the IPs of over 100 posters on LetsRun.com. He generally doesn't like to answer drug questions. The NOP sports psychologist snatched Jon Gault's recorder one time when he was trying to record Alberto Salazar (he later apologized). As humans that is going to affect the relationship. But when it's reported someone wouldn't answer questions,the perception often is going to be negative.

wejo wrote:

Which Kenyan groups have we been super hard on? Just because there are posters that blast them doesn't mean we have. I don't subscribe to the all Kenyans are dirty idea at all, but can't think of grilling any of the groups. We don't have a ton of access to the Kenyans like we do with the Americans.

I was very suspicious of Sumgong yet when to Kenya with an open eye and was going to write an article on how they said they could have such improvement and be clean. Then she tested positive in the interim.

Seriously, Weldon? Come on, man.

The site is good for news and info on what is going on I am just one reader who likes to follow the sport. When it comes to doping issues, it seems like the site has an all out approach to investigate / accuse some people but then has very friendly discussions with others where the tone is far less accusatory even in instances where they had used the same doctor / meds / supplements that are the subject of the USADA investigation. The negative relationship with AS does explain that and it’s natural. People just take it into account and it seems less journalistic. As for Kenya / Ethiopia, I recalled the doping camp article as tougher but the others as less so. Granted, most of the doping focus here has been on Salazar, which you noted is influenced by the history. I am not saying anyone is innocent or guilty. I just take it into account when I read the coverage. Thanks for the regular running news updates.

El Keniano wrote:

Fun fact about Beatrice: She's such a good hurdler that she won the Kenya Prisons games 400m hurdles with a sub 60. Something new for Emma to think about.

She can run 3000m fast and hurdle, it's that simple.

And lets face it, they're low steeples to hurdle.

I have about as many doubts about Coburn and Frerichs as about Chepkoech. Especially last year when Coburn's and Frerichs' steeple times were so much better than their flat times over any distance and Frerichs had improved an unreasonable amount.

Now they have at least partly shown both decent times over flat distances and also repeated their very good steeple times, so it looks more like a plausible improvement. Still, they also have shown improvements not seen frequently which can be reason for suspicion.

As for Chepkoech, she is the best flat runner currently in the steeple and can hurdle. Chebet and Cesspole were far more fishy to me because they ran sub 9 with absolutely atrocious hurdling.

Nevertheless 8:44 is extremely strong. The Chinese times are irrelevant, a plausible WR for the women's 3000 flat is about 8:20.

Hill Run wrote:

Disgusting vindictive comment by Coburn. Without any other shred of evidence she has attempted to kick the chair out from the outstanding track performance of the season.

Thankfully I believe this will more harm Coburns reputation than that of Chepkoech.

Coburn could learn much from the humble approach and gracious attitude of Frierichs. Sorry Emma, you may be a large fish within a small pond whilst in America, but you look wooden and cumbersome in comparison to Chepkoech.

This scenario echoes that of Ayana breaking the 10k record two years back. “Precedents” in terms of times in events are only relative if the event has a deep history of being run hard out - something nobody could ever say regarding the female steeple or 10k when the records were smashed

Easily the best post in the thread. The women's steeplechase and 10,000 have been run cautiously and wrong for so long it had become accepted as not only the norm but all that is possible. Likewise the women's 1500 meter swimming, where Ledecky is now 22 seconds faster than the prior world record.

Coburn obviously doesn't realize how fortunate she was in that worlds final. Americans 1-2 had to be at least as much of an underdog as someone running 8:44 in the foreseeable future. I hoped the 8:44 would push Coburn and Frerichs to understand they not only needed to improve significantly to remain competitive, but also that they needed to go out faster and toward the front to accomplish that. Nope. We won in 9:02 so that's fine. Anyone lower is cheating. We'll continue along the plodding American path of eventually trying to break 9 flat.

Meanwhile, I hope a half dozen more elite Kenyans/Ethipioans prioritize that event and fairly soon 9 flat is contending for 5th

wejo wrote:

As for Canova, he posts on here. Jager did a podcast and answered all the questions. I think you'll find generally that people who present their own version of events are viewed more favorably. If they don't answer questions, then the narrative in people's mind is more negative.

You always allow people to troll him and make terrible comments to him. Malmo agrees. Something should be done. Its amazing that coaches are willing to comment in here, please take care of those resources.

And now the best two posts in the thread, together. I don't dislike Emma Coburn, but I think she would have been well served to keep her thoughts to herself in this case.

+1000

Coburn obviously doesn't realize how fortunate she was in that worlds final. Americans 1-2 had to be at least as much of an underdog as someone running 8:44 in the foreseeable future.

Not in reality. It's a lot easier to fix a race, than to fix a WR.

That's why I discount "World Champion" and "Olympic Gold Medal" titles, because all you did was "beat" all the others, when who knows what was going on that day.

But a WR, that means you beat everyone.

When criminals in this world appear, the cry goes out to Underdo wrote:

Coburn obviously doesn't realize how fortunate she was in that worlds final. Americans 1-2 had to be at least as much of an underdog as someone running 8:44 in the foreseeable future.

Not in reality. It's a lot easier to fix a race, than to fix a WR.

That's why I discount "World Champion" and "Olympic Gold Medal" titles, because all you did was "beat" all the others, when who knows what was going on that day.

But a WR, that means you beat everyone.

Lol. What jealous, butthurt mofos!! Chepkoech has a doped 3000 meter time and a doped 3000 steeplechase time. You effers know it (although it seems its the same person posting pro-doper/anti-coburn garbage). Coburn is THE world champ, while Chepoech is just someone who has taken advantage of lax testing and stolen WR bonus money. All the athletes pretty much know what is going on.

Hate to say this, but I have to agree with you on this.

By Coburn's logic, Houlihan who suddenly came along and broke the 5K AR with ease and dropped a 3:57 1500m with a 57 last lap should have raised some eyebrows.

Right on! Can't wait til that Kenyan mega cheat is busted!!

El Keniano wrote:

wejo wrote:

Which Kenyan groups have we been super hard on? Just because there are posters that blast them doesn't mean we have. I don't subscribe to the all Kenyans are dirty idea at all, but can't think of grilling any of the groups. We don't have a ton of access to the Kenyans like we do with the Americans.

I was very suspicious of Sumgong yet when to Kenya with an open eye and was going to write an article on how they said they could have such improvement and be clean. Then she tested positive in the interim.

Seriously, Weldon? Come on, man.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2017/04/trip-possible-doping-camp-kenya-saw-spent-day-olympic-champion-jemima-sumgong/

Well my favorite was of course this zinger

"Sad to see Americans turn on and cannibalise the only truly talented American-born distance athlete over a dubious leak. Then again, loyalty isn't a big deal to you guys, is it?

Move to Iten, Evan. Kenyans admire you and will happily have you."

Men's SC WR is about 7% slower than the flat 3000m WR. The difference between Obiri's 3000m and Chepkoech's steeple is only about 5%. Are women's barrier lower relative to their height? Would this explain the discrepancy? Certainly high 8:40s is definitely possible in the women's steeple.

The steeplechase, women's especially, is usually devoid of the same talent you'll see in the 1500m/5000m. Emma Coburn only has a 3k PB of 8:41, she can't seriously expect to keep up with someone who has a flat 3k of 8:28 and has clearly moved on since then. I would become instantly suspicious if someone ran sub 8:40 for SC.