Jack Daniels 2Q is insane

Haven't read the whole thread, just reporting on my own experience with this plan if it helps, since I had the same target (2:59) and exactly the same plan (ie same peak mileage): for me it worked well, in the last two months I managed to complete all / almost all workouts, even added some miles to the long easy runs (did 2-3 35k easy runs). In the beginning of the plan, I struggled with workouts, had to run some of them at slower pace. The last two months happened to be Sept/Oct, so not only was I getting better in shape, at the same time temperatures were getting much nicer (cannot overstate the effect dropping temperatures had). I completed even the infamous 4x2+2x1 T workout without feeling totally wasted. Ran NYC in 2:58, so maybe to run 2:59 on a completely flat course in perfect conditions you don't need to be in shape to complete that workout, but I feel you shouldn't be far off.

My average mileage was not very high, maybe 50-55 mpw, so I kept non-workout days typically short.

60-70mpw is unnecessary just to get a sub-3 marathon. I can name average people who've done it on 30-50mpw - nothing special about their training.

Strava published stats on the training of runners at London in 2016 ... they said these runners average 42mpw in the 12 weeks leading up and peaking at 52mpw four weeks before.

I'm not anti-mileage, just that if you're doing 70mpw and you're on the bubble for 3hrs then you're doing too much and not getting enough recovery, which is of course what the OP is saying when he states that he feels like crap.

* Strava stats are for sub-3 finishers

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2016/apr/21/sub-3-marathon-data-strava-london

Uhhh wrote:

60-70mpw is unnecessary just to get a sub-3 marathon. I can name average people who've done it on 30-50mpw - nothing special about their training.

Strava published stats on the training of runners at London in 2016 ... they said these runners average 42mpw in the 12 weeks leading up and peaking at 52mpw four weeks before.

I'm not anti-mileage, just that if you're doing 70mpw and you're on the bubble for 3hrs then you're doing too much and not getting enough recovery, which is of course what the OP is saying when he states that he feels like crap.

I think my endurance is pretty crap and I don't want to screw up so I just run more.

Someone earlier criticized me for running 8 mile recovery runs. Honestly I look at the book, it says run .9 of peak, so that's 63 miles. I run two 16 mile work out runs. That's 31 more miles I need to run. So I run four 8 mile runs.

That's easiest for my schedule. I cannot do two a days as I have obligations after work.

This week is 70 miles and I have to run four 8 mile days and a 6 mile. I duno do you want me running 4 miles recovery and then a 12 on tuesday before workout on wednesday? Just seems weird.

Seems okay. Or shorter doubles...

Sure, but there's no need to follow a training plan to the T. In fact, if you're too tired (I realize that's an ambiguous statement), you're probably better off by backing off. In my personal opinion, I'd rather cut back on the easy miles than on the workouts. Use the plan as a template, but adjust if necessary.

Btw, I'm not entirely sure you can trust those Strava numbers. Of course, some people can do it on 30mpw, but I would guess most people need 50mpw to run sub3.

I actually like to use a polarized approach to my easy days. If I need to get in 32 miles over 4 days, I am going to go 10, 10, 6 and 6 every time. Whether the 6 mile days come before or after the quality days will vary depending on how I feel. My thought is that when you get up into that 70-80 minute range, we work through the various glycogen sources more thoroughly, and there could be some marginal benefit from that come race day. Plus, it shifts your perspective on what a long distance is if you are going over 10 miles 4 days per week. This is not for the faint of heart or inexperienced, but it is food for thought for those who maybe have enough life time miles such that they can handle 10 miles and still feel like they are getting some recovery.

At one recent point during my current marathon training cycle, I think I had gone 70 minutes or more for 43 out of 50 days (although that included time on the elliptical before or after, or on rare occasion in lieu of, my run).

Was coming here to say basically this. I would never run all 4 easy days at exactly the same distance. I tend to do shorter recovery runs the day right after Q days, and longer easy runs 2 days after. So it might be 6-8 miles the day after a Q session, but 10 miles 2 days after. If you need even more mileage, I might do a double on a recovery day right after a Q session, so maybe 6 in the am and 4 in the PM so that I get a full 10 miles but not all together.

In general, think time on your feet. While running 70 MPW, I would never recommend doing over 60 minutes for a true recovery run, i.e. within 24 hours of your Q day. If you need to run your recovery runs slowly (which is good!), just try to cap it at 60 minutes. For you, that seems to be 6-7 miles.

I'll also add that in the 2Q plan, he bolds certain Q days and specifically says if you're feeling tired, you should just run all the miles easy. Are you doing that? It doesn't sound like it.

Thank you Easy Peasy for good advice.

I log my training at

www.myrunningcoach247.com

, and enjoy the feedback, for free.

Good luck

Easy Peasy wrote:

I'll also add that in the 2Q plan, he bolds certain Q days and specifically says if you're feeling tired, you should just run all the miles easy. Are you doing that? It doesn't sound like it.

no! I don't want to fail so I do all workouts. Also anytime he says run x miles or y minutes I always do the miles even if it is longer than how much time he suggested.

Also I'm feeling great again. Much better, it was really just that one week. This was my run from yesterday.

6E 2T 6E 2T. Last 2T were on dirt roads with rolling hills (strava GAP got my back on performance) over 1000 vertical feet over run.

Smoove wrote:

At one recent point during my current marathon training cycle, I think I had gone 70 minutes or more for 43 out of 50 days (although that included time on the elliptical before or after, or on rare occasion in lieu of, my run).

How much time would you spend on the elliptical Smoove? Would that be warm-up and cool-down?

I have kept close track of this - I have averaged about 35:00 per week on the elliptical, with some weeks being 0 minutes and others being over 100 minutes.

Typically, I try to do 20:00-30:00 before a 6 or 7 mile run so that I'm doing at least 70:00 of total and essentially continuous aerobic work. Sometimes I just go 40-70 minutes and don't run at all.

Smoove wrote:

I have kept close track of this - I have averaged about 35:00 per week on the elliptical, with some weeks being 0 minutes and others being over 100 minutes.

Typically, I try to do 20:00-30:00 before a 6 or 7 mile run so that I'm doing at least 70:00 of total and essentially continuous aerobic work. Sometimes I just go 40-70 minutes and don't run at all.

Smoove,

Would you say more about how the elliptical fits into your marathon training? Benefits/drawbacks? Does it take the place of a 2nd daily workout? Is it solely a warmup/cooldown tool? What volume of your training program does it consist of.

Many thanks.

Historically, I have only used the elliptical as cross training when injured. An injury (posterior tibial tendinitis and a possible related stress reaction) knocked me out of Boston this year about 5 weeks before the race when I was in really good shape (but that may have been a blessing in disguise given the weather). Despite the injury I signed up for Chicago to try to capitalize on my existing fitness, as I don't see myself running too many more marathons and the longer I wait, the less likely I am to hit some time goals that I have in my mind since I am already 46.

So between the injury, and the challenge of training for a fall marathon through the summer in Florida, I decided to make the elliptical a more integral part of my training this cycle. When training for the marathon, I am a big believer in getting in as many 10 mile/70 minute days as possible. So for the most part, my elliptical time was usually integrated with a run to produce a (nearly) continuous 70 minute or more aerobic session rather than to use it in place of a double session - but that is the result of preference for singles over doubles.

From time to time, I would just use the elliptical in place of a run altogether. Most times when I did that, it was for a duration of 45 minutes or so, but in a few instance it was 60-75 minutes. I have also found that I can simulate tempo/threshold efforts pretty well on the elliptical, but I only did that once this training cycle.

Below is a week by week list of the number of 7-minute increments I spent on the elliptical each week for the 14 weeks ending as of last week. It averages out to about seven 7-minute increments per week, but with a fair amount of week-to-week variation. During this same 14 week stretch, I averaged 62 miles per week of actual running, so that should put things in perspective - maybe about 10%of my total aerobic volume came via the elliptical, but with a lot of variety from week to week.

9

5

13

6

0

0

11

0

4

7

10

9

0

25

0

Thanks for the info. Helpful, as are all your posts. It sounds like injury compelled you to include time on the elliptical. Assuming absence of injuries going forward, do you see yourself continuing to use it?

Hey OP? How about a race result update? How did it all turn out?

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

Hey OP? How about a race result update? How did it all turn out?

Bump. OP - how did you do?

Hi all, Sorry I should have updated this a lot sooner.

I unfortunately ran a 3:00:16, just missing sub 3. It was misty leading up to the race, and race temp was about 40-42 degrees. No rain during race, but very windy, about 10 miles into a headwind.

I ran a great race, my first 13 was at 1:29:50 and I faded a bit at the end. I should have stuck with the 3 hour pace group, but when I lined up I was a ways behind them and never ran hard to catch up. I also trusted my watch a bit too much which was not lined up with the miles on the course.

This was my third marathon ever, going from 3:58 to 3:15 to 3:00:16. I made some mental mistakes which probably cost me the sub 3 more than the headwind. I have started the same plan again for another fall marathon (with a little higher mileage than last time) because it really worked well for me.

Thanks all for the advice from earlier in this thread.