Alex Hutchinson calls out CANOVA over study confirming EPO works on Kenyan runners

Where is your study, Jon? The world awaits.

You know what my study says. EPO doped cyclists did not produce more power. Making up numbers for profit is not science.

JonO. wrote:

You know what my study says. EPO doped cyclists did not produce more power. Making up numbers for profit is not science.

Time at a certain power is extended. Is that really so hard to get?

As the great poet Eminem once said: " Back to the lab again, yo."

JonO. wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Which is the "physiological talent" that makes runners so different one from another ?)

Fitness. In ten years time Kenenisa Bekele might be just another Joe Hobbyjogger getting his arse kicked by even older runners.

This answer is completely off the point, as usual.

Your 3k pace becomes your 5km pace etc. wrote:

JonO. wrote:

You know what my study says. EPO doped cyclists did not produce more power. Making up numbers for profit is not science.

Time at a certain power is extended. Is that really so hard to get?

Your time at a certain power is extended by better biomechanical efficiency.

I have explained enough times why EPO is NOT a performance enhancer. And the results of cyclists who doped did not show a power increase over time. Why deny it? What is your agenda?

Renato Canova wrote:

3) I changed this assertion last year, after coaching the Norwegian athletes SONDRE MOEN to beat the European Record in Marathon (2:05'48"), coming from 2:12 of previous PB, AFTER 270 days of altitude during 2017 (including Kenya in Iten, Italy in Sestriere and Switzerland in St. Moritz). Now, my assertion is that "EPO DOESN'T WORK FOR TOP ATHLETES LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE FOR LONG CONTINUOUS PERIODS, IF THEY USE PROPER TRAINING".

How do you know this? Have you ran a trial on him with poor results?

JonO. wrote:

Your 3k pace becomes your 5km pace etc. wrote:

Time at a certain power is extended. Is that really so hard to get?

Your time at a certain power is extended by better biomechanical efficiency.

I have explained enough times why EPO is NOT a performance enhancer. And the results of cyclists who doped did not show a power increase over time. Why deny it? What is your agenda?

Yeah, people suddenly get more coordinated after a nice jolt to the blood count. lol

You haven't "explained" anything.

Cyclists and runners show better sustained power, as I noted by 3k pace becoming 5k pace.

The agenda as always, is clean competition.

Hmmm but why in all endurance athletes like cyclist or cross country skiing , I said in all that had great winning or great record , I said all of them made great use of Epo. From early 90's to early 2000's where are all record of hill climbing ( the Pantani era) in 98 Pantani won Giro and Tour and after years have been found that he was on Epo like all others competitors

Alpe d' Huez climbing 1997 Pantani 37'35" Terrific !!! This is like somebody that run 26'19" on 10000 . Just the same thing! And he did it all by himself from the beginning of the hill!!!

2004 Armstrong 37'36

1994 Pantani 38'00

2001 Armstrong 38'01

1995 Pantani 38'05

1997 Ullrich 38'23

Mortirolo climbing 1996 Ivan Gotti 42'40" !!!!!!!!! Out of this world ! Terrific! 10,5% medium inclination for 12k!!!!!

1994 Pantani 43'00

1997 Ivan Gotti 43'10"

Alpe di Pampeago 1999 Pantani 13'30"

1998 Tonkov 13'45"

1998Pantani 13'46

2003 Simoni 14'30"

Plateau de Beille 1998 Pantani 43'30"

2007 Contador 44'07"

2007 Rasmussen 44'10

2004 Armstrong 45'34"

2003 Armstrong 45'39

1) All of these cyclist are super strong great great talent athleths , This is out of question.Epo or not Epo

2) All of them made use of Epo (also others products but here we talk about Epo).

3) All of these fast times were made many years ago when antidoping wasnt good as now. For Example the Pantani 98 blood sample was frozen and then at Chatenay-Malabry lab in 2004 with new test it resulted positive to Epo and with him all others samples of others cyclist.

4) Is a matter of fact that after new better test to find Epo and after Armstrong era all times are slower.

5) This last point is similar to what happened on track with all records on 1500 , mile, 3000, 5000, 10000 that are from

that era too. But then we have somebody like Ayana that destroys an already crazy 10000 record. and made open our eyes.

6) The big question mark is road racing Half Marathon and Marathon here the thing is totally different ( And here is where

Renato Canova words made really sense) I mean we are seeing an incedible progression in 1) Half Marathon women times are faster than ever

2) Half Marathon men times also we know that is about to happen everything there are a lot of guys that can break WR anytime

if they find the right conditions. 3) Marathon is the same thing with a lot of guys that can run in 2:03" 2:04. And also women

are not too far from Radcliffe record . (but this record is from 2003......so I do the same consideration that i ve done above)

But to agree totally with Canova i need to know if for some strange or mystical reason the Epo improve performance in

an elite cyclist or cross country skiing while in an elite runner Epo doesnt have any effect.

Bluesky, those times equate to 6 watts per kilo, a normal power output for a cyclist in the right weather conditons.

On warmer days, their times were much slower.

22kmh on an 8.3% grade is 6 watt per kilo. This is what people don't understand in all this EPO obsession. Look at strava data and you see these number every day.

Rethink it.

JonO. wrote:

Bluesky, those times equate to 6 watts per kilo, a normal power output for a cyclist in the right weather conditons.

On warmer days, their times were much slower.

22kmh on an 8.3% grade is 6 watt per kilo. This is what people don't understand in all this EPO obsession. Look at strava data and you see these number every day.

Rethink it.

You seem to be missing out on the fact that they are doing this in the middle of a stage race.

The whole field would be doing similar times if your belief was true.

Talent plus dope just moves them into another league.

Also I'd like to see your data on the weight of the riders. You were there with a scale, right?

Oh, the "know it all" Canova. Did you conduct the experiment where you trained athletes, measured their times, then gave them EPO and measured their times again to compare?

Then in no way you can tell that EPO doesn't work on somebody.

Maybe Sondre is a 2:03 runner on EPO, you don't know. Nobody knows.

The weight for the watts per kilo is calculated as the weight when the effor started, so somewhat below the beggining of the ride when they are heavier.

Team Sky nutritionists use the same data as I have been using to calculate energy consumption and fueling.

The numbers are the same as Lance Armsrong's actual power output at his peak. Ferarri said 6.7 watts per kilo at 'threshold' but that was kidology, it was actually 6 watts per kilo at threshold and 6.7 at VO2 max.

These numbers are repeated all over strava with video evidence to back them up and known weather conditions.

Talking about a 'clean sport' is an inane platitude that merely hypes up the belief in so called PEDs.

There are no performance enhancing drugs, your body produces all the endogenous performance enhncers it needs. Many exercise physiologists do not accept this because they lack real the knowledge of basic physiology to comprehend how oxygen is limited by homeostatic control.

Talent = regional level

Hard work = regional level

Talent + hard work = world class

Talent + hard work + microdosing = world class elite

Talent + hard + full EPO = WR attempt level.

Simple and true for 99,9% distance runners.

Or maybe he is a 2:05 marathoner on EPO...

artojas wrote:

Oh, the "know it all" Canova. Did you conduct the experiment where you trained athletes, measured their times, then gave them EPO and measured their times again to compare?

Then in no way you can tell that EPO doesn't work on somebody.

Maybe Sondre is a 2:03 runner on EPO, you don't know. Nobody knows.

Bluesky's post shows you all the data you need to know apart from power output. That's where I can help you. The power outputs are in the normal range, EPO is NOT a performance enhancer.

its simple man

rhEPO does amazing things for 99.999% of the worlds population, but that .001% are sooooo genetically superior to everyone else that rhEPO doesnt have any effect on them at all. this .001% are interesting because they come from East Africa...it is renatos reputation that weeds out all the people who are not of this .001% superior genetics. he has and never will coach any runner who is not of this .001% super human ability.

if i was to take a bett, their DNA must have something alien in it for them to be LIGHT years greater than EVERYONE else who has ever lived on this planet. the strangest part though is one white girl from soggy england somehow must have injected this DNA or got it through osmosis as she went from being a medal contender sometimes to dropping 2:15 on this .001% like it was nothing.

thankfully here on LR we have the genius minds of rek and JonO to dive into the myths, fallacies and fantasy realms to figure out just what is really going on.

most think that rhEPO only increases hematocrit levels, and with this an increase in 02...and case closed, but it also turns out that rhEPO increases the size and amount of the mitochondria in the muscle cells.....

so more and larger mitochondria then normal? so being able to produce more ATP than normal? so being able to get rid of C02 at larger quantities than normal? wouldnt this enable an endurance athlete to maintain an super high exertion level effort without ever switching over to anaerobic respiration?

i mean all this talk about "real" science from some on here and they dont have Phd and have yet to have an answer for this medical paper.

but what do i know, i just google on the interwebs and i did get a BA in exercise physiology numbers of years ago.

more and larger mitochondria = more ATP production, faster expulsion of C02, longer duration before lactic acid builds up, and a much greater time/effort before anaerobic respiration kicks in.

this is all fantasy i know, but since we are in fantasy land lets imagine shall we?

some runner going at a very fast pace, but is still below the AT (anaerobic threshold), while all the other runners are starting to enter the dreaded AT, 2 laps to go....still going smooth, the runners breathing is fine and he has so much more mitochondria in his body that he should naturally have, he is not having any problems exhaling C02, his V02 max isnt any higher and his hematocrit are in the acceptable range, but its the ability of his unnatural amounts of larger and more abundant mitochondria that take the oxygen he is breathing and create an almost unending amounts of ATP, and if any lactate is created it is quickly converted back to ATP as well. last lap....everyone else tries to muster a kick but this quickly pushes them well past the AT, oxygen debt so no more ATP being created, too much C02 in the blood, too much lactic acid in the cells...game over...while said runner has no problem mounting a 54 second burst of speed smiling all the way to the line, after crossing the line two breaths and he is back on the good side of the AT, does a dance and jogs a victory lap.

dont worry though he isnt one of those .001% super humans renato coaches

artojas wrote:

Talent = regional level

Hard work = regional level

Talent + hard work = world class

Talent + hard work + microdosing = world class elite

Talent + hard + full EPO = WR attempt level.

Simple and true for 99,9% distance runners.

Tell that to rekrunner.

artojas wrote:

Oh, the "know it all" Canova. Did you conduct the experiment where you trained athletes, measured their times, then gave them EPO and measured their times again to compare?

Then in no way you can tell that EPO doesn't work on somebody.

Maybe Sondre is a 2:03 runner on EPO, you don't know. Nobody knows.

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