A question for successful marathoners

I think that anyone who has trained for a marathon or two before should be able to nail 20 miles @ MP+60s at the opening of a cycle... unless your goal MP is >7:00/mi or you have very little marathon training under your belt, it's not reasonable to take a minute/mile off MP in an 18-week cycle.

12 w/ 7@MP is harder. I run 17 w/ 8@MP at 16 weeks out (it's a Pfitzinger workout) and I typically complete it, but it usually sucks and makes me nervous.

ghdzfhdznhjdh wrote:

darkwave wrote:

I could have run those 6 weeks out, while at peak mileage and with plenty of fatigue. No idea about 4.5 months (18-19 weeks) out - my training cycles aren't anywhere near that long. Generally, at that point I'm on a break or just coming off of one, so the answer would probably be no.

+1

+1 more.

18-19 weeks out is usually my first week back to it after some downtime to recover from my previous race. 14 weeks out I could definitely pull both of these off in the same week if I wanted, but the 12 w/7 at MP would hurt a little.

Thanks for all the responses. I’m really just trying to determine what kind of shape I’m in going into marathon training. I’ve been busting my a** and am hopeful for a break through race.

I live in south Texas so finding a race at this time is very difficult since it’s so hot. And I don’t want to do a time trial since it will take too much out of me and not really show me much since I’m untapered and it’s dewpoint of 75+ at 5am.

Yes

lookingforaPR wrote:

Thanks for all the responses. I’m really just trying to determine what kind of shape I’m in going into marathon training. I’ve been busting my a** and am hopeful for a break through race.

I live in south Texas so finding a race at this time is very difficult since it’s so hot. And I don’t want to do a time trial since it will take too much out of me and not really show me much since I’m untapered and it’s dewpoint of 75+ at 5am.

Instead of time-trialing and worrying so much, were I you, I would just start the 16 or 20-whatever week marathon plan. On your first long run (of whatever...say, 12-16), in as neutral conditions as you can get, *with you running by feel,* (and running at whatever level of exertion you normally like to run at in your long runs), you should learn where you are. Anyway, that's how I approach it.

Yes and yes. I don't understand the purpose of this thread, are you asking if these are ok workouts? Are these workouts you are doing? mp plus 60 secs is too slow for a tempo and too fast for an easy long run, I guess at certain paces that might be a tempo.

7 miles at mp or even 12 miles at mp shouldn't kill you. Its kind of short for a marathon workout. Some easy workouts are good in training though.

4.5 months out you should be focusing on power/explosiveness/ankle strength/speed and throwing the body anything it can handle and not worry about marathon pace. However, general aerobic fitness would lend that 20 miles at 60s slower than MP should be doable, though not necessarily too easy for some athletes.

follow canova training for hard training and success...

as for me, I could do both of these workouts however it doesn't matter too much. Shoot high for your goal on race day and see how training progresses. I've always aimed to run fast and come race day it's all about listening and feeling what you can run, even smooth, or ideally, negative splits, which happens seldom in the marathon. Even a good day you may pos split 45 seconds and it's great success

In the year leading up to my only real marathon (a 3:04 / 7:01/mi), I could have done the 20 mile run at 8:01/mi pretty much at the drop of a hat, only boredom would have been an issue.

Seven miles at 7 flat wasn't all that hard either.

To be honest though, I ran too hard in training and under performed otherwise. I hated running slower than 7:30 pace but yet my half and marathon PR were only 125/304.

At the end of base, I would be able to do the 20M at 60s over MP, or low 7s, although I would be unlikely to run 20M at that pace, because I gear my training to running 20M with the first 10M at 7-7:30 pace and the second 10M or more faster, working toward having up to 13M at MP. So, for instance, I might run 20M under 2:20 every week or every other week after base is built, but the first half might be somewhere between 1:18 and 1:08, and the second half between 1:05 and 1:00, so 7:48-6:48 for the 1st ten and 6:30-6:00 for the second ten to thirteen.

7 miles MP of 12M would not be a workout I would really do. My long tempos are generally the above and my shorter tempos would usually be 5M at half marathon pace or faster (on a tmill at 1%, which you can discount by a good deal from the actual pace of 5:30 avg down to 5:10 avg as the season progresses). Otherwise, I might do 5xmile@1/2 marathon, 3x 2M@10k pace, or maybe 8x800 or 16x400.

Surely a more interesting question is how to pick a target marathon pace 4.5 months out? Have you got a previous marathon or recent half as bench mark?

I couldn't answer either of those as haven't done them but generally it would be a yes to 1 (year round) and a maybe to 2. What's more important to me was that I had no issue doing them 6-8 weeks out.

At what stage in a cycle is it too late to decide that current MP is too conservative and it can be pushed quicker, whilst still having time to get sufficient workouts in at that pace?

I ran a 20 with 18 at MP?!

I think anyone who is training consistently and has run marathons before should be able to run 20 miles MP+60seconds basically year round. Actually doing it that far out is another thing though and I agree with previous posters that it's too early.

I’ve run those longer runs to A) keep total mileage up, and B) I find that Long runs become easier the more I do them. So this base cycle I’ve done 12 runs of 15+.

I was actually out of state today for a conference so the temps were in the 60’s for the first time for me in 4 months. I ran 19 miles at MP + 40 secs and was aerobic the entire time. Very good sign of current fitness.

Yes, though I have run only 137 official marathons, run sub-3 twice in the same calendar week, and turned a 2:41 marathon off of pure strength workouts since my absolutely best 200m was 32 seconds and my best 400m was 72 seconds.

I regularly ran 10 mile tempo runs on a Wednesday after a double workout on Tuesday often of 12-18 miles in the morning and then a speed session, perhaps 4 x 1 mile in the late afternoon. My long runs at peak form were always either serious negative split out and back sessions of 20-24 miles with the return at full marathon effort/pace or big, BIG rolling hills in the foothills of the Sierras about 30 miles east of Sacramento at full "race effort" for 16-20 miles. My long flat course tempo runs were often AT full Marathon Pace, e.g. at 6:15min/mile average and my regular 10 mile Wednesday Tempo runs were at 5:55-6:05/mile pace for those 10 miles. I tended to average about 110-130 miles/week as well and a bit over 5000 miles/year in my middle 30's to age 39 when a fracture in my right foot compromises the higher mileage thereafter.

This thread makes me think i have/had soft goals in the marathon. I ran 6:35 pace in the marathon. 7:30 is what i usually run for my easy pace. 20 miles at 7:30 has never been any issue at all. Ive run 20 at 7:00 and didnt think much of it.