Official Cohen/Manafort Guilty Thread (+I've been driving across the country listening to Limbaugh and MSNBC AMA)

So far Manafort is an old fashion tough guy. Maybe Manafort believes if he were to talk he then would have to worry about Russians and Ukraines. It is so rare in modern culture to see white collar defendants holding strong as is Manafort.

So far wrote:

So far Manafort is an old fashion tough guy. Maybe Manafort believes if he were to talk he then would have to worry about Russians and Ukraines. It is so rare in modern culture to see white collar defendants holding strong as is Manafort.

I just don't get it if you're getting paid $20 million a year, why you don't report it?

Even if he was doing shady s*** in the Ukraine why not just report the income?

Manafort is the victim of a witch hunt, had his door kicked in to find Russians and they found tax and bank fraud instead. That's what witch hunts do. Now they'll say there must be Russians in someone else's house and repeat the process.

Cohen's "guilty" plea is a joke, and the court could end up embarrassed to have accepted it when it's plainly false. There's no violation in terms of campaign expenditures; rather he apparently claims to be guilty of an "excessive contribution" by making a personal expenditure at the suggestion of a candidate. That's legally a contribution (USC 52 s 30116a7B1 ), but only if he was really spending his own money and wasn't reimbursed by the campaign. Sure.

Even if he really were being so generous, it's not that big a deal. That's not just because "everyone does it" - the reason everyone does is that the enforcement process starts with the FEC, which is legally required to seek "conciliation agreement" with the parties involved (USC t52 s30109). It may bypass that process and refer directly to to law enforcement only if it decides certain violations were "knowing and willful" or involved federal funding. This decision requires a vote of 4 commissioners out of 6. Most commissioners are Republican or Democrat, neither of which is usually keen to start a prosecution war, so both parties' many violations are generally dealt with quietly. The Democrats might have different ideas now, but there are only 4 commissioners currently, 2 of which are Republican and only 1 a Democrat. They haven't got the votes.

So I doubt this got to the FBI via the FEC, and if not, the FBI and DOJ are overstepping in addition to encouraging a false guilty plea. Trump's best tactic would be to mobilize his conservative legal hounds to find out why, and to get the FEC to weigh in as the law dictates. The FEC would not refer this to the AG, they would apply a common sense "conciliation agreement" such as having Trump pay Cohen back if he didn't already, and maybe some fines.

I know someone(s) will lash out bitterly about this, but hopefully they'll save us all some trouble and read up on it first.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30109

Cohen, a terrible lawyer, has gone and hired a lawyer even worse than him to represent his interests.

This is an article by Mark Penn -- a Clintonista:

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/402959-cohens-plea-deal-is-prosecutors-attempt-to-set-up-trump

My take is that Manafort and Cohen are shady dudes but their illegal business/tax practices were exposed only because they were involved with Trump and had nothing to do with Trump. Manfort has steel balls, Cohen has Matzo balls.

I can see how Trump got involved with Manafort (at the time Manafort was hired, no legit experienced Republican wanted their name associated with Trump). I can't see how Trump got involved with Cohen, since there had to be innumerable, actually semi-competent lawyers who Trump could have hired over the years.

I should add that I understand that Trump is no Mitt Romney in the integrity department.

Frank Marshall Davis wrote:

This is an article by Mark Penn -- a Clintonista:

Manfort has steel balls, Cohen has Matzo balls.

Why is it that Cohen has Matzo balls? Why is it tough to stay silent to protect a draft dodger who wears makeup? Would Trump stay silent if the roles were reversed?

Cohen's standing up to the most powerful person in the country, and also to Russia, so that he can tell it like it is to the American people. Don't you want him to tell it like it is? I thought you like that.

I hope that Cohen flips like he's the son of Evil Kenevil and an Olympic gymnast while flipping his pancakes and listening to Nils Lofgren's 1985 album, "Flip".

What about the Ukrainian women?

Frank Marshall Davis wrote:

My take is that Manafort and Cohen are shady dudes but their illegal business/tax practices were exposed only because they were involved with Trump

Correct (so far), though I'd replace the euphemistic "shady dudes" with "criminals".

The conservative response is to complain about the Clintons? Pathetic.

My take is, why not just take this stuff at face value and realize they're guilty as hell, and now Cohen is claiming he definitely got orders from Trump. There's no deep state conspiracy.

I'm not a fan of Maddow because she never gets to the damn point but listening to conservative media is just kind of funny right now. It's also really sad because a lot of people listen to them.

The hold-out juror on the remaining ten counts in the Manafort case: “Certainly Mr. Manafort got caught breaking the law, but he wouldn’t have gotten caught if they weren’t after President Trump,” Duncan said of the special counsel’s case, which she separately described as a “witch hunt to try to find Russian collusion,” borrowing a phrase Trump has used in tweets more than 100 times.

He's guilty but they shouldn't have caught him so they should find him not guilty? Proof the US needs a stronger educational system.

At any rate, the question all the news stations really want to know is the extent to which Trump colluded/is colluding with Russia, but that's really just a drop in the bucket. There are a million other reasons to think our president is bad at his job and a horrible human being, and I think it's pretty easy to be upset at the state of politics in general. This whole issue of truthiness should make your skin crawl.

#1 Wejo: "Major developments like this deserve their own threads." Um, no they don't. Not on a running website. This is pure clickbait.

#2 Your analysis isn't awful. Democrats won't move to impeach unless more comes out. It would not be politically viable to talk about that now. They need to campaign on policies/ideas. Even Trump-ers cannot deny that this is not a good look for a sitting president. Let's not downplay Cohen because Trump tweeted and called him a bad lawyer. Cohen was a part of Trump's inner circle for more than a decade. Manafort was his campaign chairman. The earliest people to endorse him are guilty of crimes too. The White House is looking more and more like a criminal organization. It's not enough for Republicans to simply wipe their hands of it and try to say that each person found guilty is X steps removed from the President. This stuff should matter more. It's embarrassing. At Trump's latest rally his brainwashed crowd was still chanting, "Lock her up." You want to talk about sexism or not?

#3 The difference between Trump and Bill Clinton is that Clinton was already in office and did not lie when his affair was discovered. Cohen lied to help Trump get elected. Congress has discretion on what is impeachable. Lindsey Graham played a huge role in Bill's impeachment and said, "You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job (as president) in this constitutional republic if this body determines your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role. Because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office." Why would Republicans feel any different now?

#4 One could argue that the Republican Party used to stand for things. They used to put America first. Be strong on defense and protection. Trump has done the opposite. He puts himself first all the time and nobody in the party will say a bad thing against him. Putting America first does not mean getting cozy with foreign dictators and threatening war on other countries. Trade wars help nobody. He was zero understanding on how the economy works. Raising tariffs when foreign companies have production plants in the US...industries are tied to one another. Tax cuts to the super wealthy only help the super wealthy. After the tax cut went through a super wealthy person who got $700 million back (money that could be going to services) promptly gave $30 to the Republican Party. This is why Republicans won't say anything bad about Trump. They are too scarred to cut off the hand that feeds them. Republicans gain political control. Buy elections/politicians. Get tax breaks that only help the super wealthy but then spend ads targeting immigrants to get their base to keep voting them in. It was no shock that when all of the Cohen/Manafort stuff went down Trump was highlight an undocumented person that committed murder. You know what? Murder is bad all the time. Violence to women is bad all the time. The cycle continues.

Imagine if President Obama was going through an ounce of this? The Republicans would not be singing the same tune and making excuses for it. Where are all of the evangelicals at with their morals? Cohen was directed by Trump to pay off two pornstars before the election so that it did not hurt his chances at winning. Disgraceful. He cheated on his wife multiple times and then had his lawyer pay them off.

Amen bother - the hypocrisy is thick with the GOP and the right currently and is only going to get worst. We live in a time and more specifically a country where the majority party (GOP) simply claims 'Fake News' or ' Conspiracy' when things don't break their way. Roles reverse and it was Barry in the situation - impeachment proceedings would have started months ago.

ayyyyyyyy wrote:

Imagine if President Obama was going through an ounce of this? The Republicans would not be singing the same tune and making excuses for it. Where are all of the evangelicals at with their morals? Cohen was directed by Trump to pay off two pornstars before the election so that it did not hurt his chances at winning. Disgraceful. He cheated on his wife multiple times and then had his lawyer pay them off.

NewtotheSouthSide wrote:

Republicans gain political control. Buy elections/politicians. Get tax breaks that only help the super wealthy but then spend ads targeting immigrants

This sums up the party nicely. The policies fox news has advocated have absolutely destroyed their viewers. Their viewers are angry and need someone to blame. Hannity gets paid handsomely deflecting blame away from fox news elites and onto other groups who have nothing to do with it. He does it from his home on a liberal elite island outside of NYC. Wouldn't be caught dead in a Midwestern diner.

The Koch brothers, in their defense, don't even try to call themselves activists. They call themselves investors. An example: Spend $10 million on local adds to get voters riled up at non-issues. Voters then vote in Koch's candidate based on non-issues. Koch's candidate cuts taxes/deregulates for Koch giving them a windfall of say $500 million. Great investment for the Kochs at the expense of the voters.

My points on the topic:

* Trump is all the worst things that we have witnessed and assumed, but I think his fate lies in how much (if any) evidence can be unequivocally tied to him. I think it's very likely he could be impeached but still remain in office. That is probably the best scenario for the country because it creates as resolution without total chaos. Dems are vindicated, Repubs are duly chastised, the Trump political model is invalidated, etc. Removal from office would only escalate the political insanity we already have. Every president for the foreseeable future would be subject to the "remove him/her" from office like they did Trump. And, "We need to get them back to even the score."

* Clinton was investigated, found guilty, impeached, and suffered the consequences. Let's move on.

* Hillary was investigated and cleared. Either there was nothing there or the republicans were too incompetent to figure out a way to charge her and associates with any wrongdoing. She likely lost the election as a result. That's a pretty serious consequence. Let's move on. Every time I hear a republican counter with something about the Clintons, I know it's just B.S. and I tune out.

* There is an absolute failure and vacuum of leadership among republicans. Does anyone have a backbone? Why do they think bind loyalty to Trump is the secret to success politically? Why doesn't anyone have the guts to stand up for ... well, anything really? Any republican that can break away and say ... "Follow me. I'm going to bring some integrity back to this party. Trump is wrong, and the current leadership is spineless." ... will be way ahead of the game. The leadership is so lacking that anyone who can step up has the potential to lead the party.

Lets run is filed with too many white males to get an accurate assessment. They worship a overweight 70+ man who used fake tan and is basically a world joke. (I hope the truth isn't too uncivil)

I generally agree with your take. The GOP is spineless and if they hold the senate - no way they will convict. The House might not even bother to impeach if the Dems control, but they will investigative power. So I think many other aspects will be explored. The right will howl and whine, but they seem to have selective memory or have no problem with endless investigations of DEM candidates.

Based on Trump's past, I don't know how any reasonable person could not think he's shady AF. I personally think Trump is a charlatan. I don't get why people are loyal to Trump....even his voter supporters. For Trump, loyalty is a one-way street, he turns on people in a heartbeat and I'm sure he will turn on his voters if given the chance.

I notice all the trump supporters (including some here) seem to gravitate towards the same argument, It's like the participate in the same echo chamber. The idea that Cohen plead to something that wasn't a crime is laughable.

So if Trump and Cohen did nothing wrong, why did they repeatedly lie about it? and why didn't they disclose it?

That's not out of the question. But in the larger picture, Trump's contempt for the law of the land of which he is the elected leader will bring him down one way or the other.

Trump is a crook in every way as well as being a sleazy pVssy-grabbing cheetopene. The tax-related issues may prove a larger problem the longer term as they were for Nixon...and lots of people believe that a guy who doubles down on NDAs to porn stars with whom he has affairs and lies about it to the people and the White House staff as well as the Special Counsel is a tax-evader. It will be great when the evidence chain provided by Manafort and Cohen leads to a Trump tax indictment, because that will follow him out of office as it did Nixon... he's so dumb, he doesn't understand there are going to be consequences. Becoming Prez was the worst idea he ever had and one day, he'll realize it like we already do....

https://www.nytimes.com/1974/06/21/archives/panel-hears-irs-weighed-fraud-charge-for-nixon-reports-confirmed.html