casual obsever wrote:
But, as you know, that only proves that he would have gotten more points if he had competed clean.
Lolz. These doper apologists crack me up.
Too funny...I can just hear rekrunner saying something like that. ?
casual obsever wrote:
But, as you know, that only proves that he would have gotten more points if he had competed clean.
Lolz. These doper apologists crack me up.
Too funny...I can just hear rekrunner saying something like that. ?
The wild 80s wrote:
casual obsever wrote:
But, as you know, that only proves that he would have gotten more points if he had competed clean.
Lolz. These doper apologists crack me up.
Too funny...I can just hear rekrunner saying something like that. ?
Yes because if he wasn't hitting up he'd have time to train properly.
I have to laugh when you are trolled by an obvious imposter.
Rocket Fuel Madness wrote:
rekrunnr wrote:
This is all speculation. Why don't you look at the evidence like me instead of using mythology?
I've looked at the evidence many times from your EPO-performance thread and the Africans experienced significant improvement in performance post-90s. Do you think those big jumps in performance in a relatively short period of time was done on bread and water alone?
rekrunner wrote:
I have to laugh when you are trolled by an obvious imposter.
Rocket Fuel Madness wrote:
I've looked at the evidence many times from your EPO-performance thread and the Africans experienced significant improvement in performance post-90s. Do you think those big jumps in performance in a relatively short period of time was done on bread and water alone?
if i remember correctly from "train hard EPO easy" i mean train hard win easy....it was milk mixed with bull blood that was the "secret" elixir
If you want to make a case for steroids not working for women, be my guest. I guess one main difference with the GDR athletes is that the observed subjects were the very elite athletes that performed well and set records. We don't have to project and extrapolate observations from untrained non-elite subjects to draw conclusions about elite athletes. Didn't the IAAF also just complete testing to be able to ban women producing high levels of testosterone? I can't believe there are no studies on women and steroids, as was claimed. Regarding the Kenyan and Scottish studies, these are actually not "observational studies" but poorly designed studies unable to draw the conclusions you want to. I don't want a gold star for pointing out they are uncontrolled, but it is undisputable that you cannot say it was all EPO effect without controls. It's not the kind of study you need to conduct to accurately measure how much additional benefit came from EPO, rather than other sources. Funny you mention "if the study were to show no improvement with EPO", because a controlled and double-blinded study did just that for cycling, a sport where I didn't express doubt about the positive benefit of EPO for elites. Funny you say "I don't know if it's significant over-estimates" -- that is precisely the point -- we cannot say without controls. This makes the studies pretty much worthless, as it adds very little to our knowledge. I am confident that the lack of controls will lead to an over-estimate, because it will credit all performance improvements to EPO, when this would be contradicted by a control group that also improves, like we saw in the altitude study improving by 2.3%. That's why I say we are discussing your faith, rather than knowledge, because I say you don't know, and you say I don't know. Your suggestion that "they could have ..." is just injecting a new hypothesis to compensate for the poor study design, just to still be able to say "it is possible that I am still right, because you don't KNOW that I'm wrong" -- you could have said that without the study. Is it well known that EPO effect is dose dependent? Some of you seem to want to convince me that even micro-dosing can still produce a similar benefit. And you are relying an an Hct/performance correlation that has not yet been established.
Did they dope with EPO? East German women times survived, but what about the men?
Subway Surfers wrote:
rekrunnr wrote:
This is all speculation. Why don't you look at the evidence like me instead of using mythology?
Looks to me like evidence, what JO and Rekrunner miss is that the East Germans doped and their athletes did phenomenal times. Take out the drugs and the phenomenal times disappeared. It really is that simple.
I wouldn't say that about a decathlete doping in 1988. I primarily concern myself with male distance events.
The wild 80s wrote:
casual obsever wrote:
But, as you know, that only proves that he would have gotten more points if he had competed clean.
Lolz. These doper apologists crack me up.
Too funny...I can just hear rekrunner saying something like that. ?
rekrunner wrote:
Did they dope with EPO? East German women times survived, but what about the men?
Subway Surfers wrote:
Looks to me like evidence, what JO and Rekrunner miss is that the East Germans doped and their athletes did phenomenal times. Take out the drugs and the phenomenal times disappeared. It really is that simple.
I seem to recall that Germans improved their national 5000m record during the EPO era to 12:54, this was well up and beyond the unlimited steriod and blood transfusion era times that preceded it. Ouch!
So your best example of an East German that took EPO is a West German busted for nandrolone? That's two swings and two misses for you.
Subway Surfers wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Did they dope with EPO? East German women times survived, but what about the men?
I seem to recall that Germans improved their national 5000m record during the EPO era to 12:54, this was well up and beyond the unlimited steriod and blood transfusion era times that preceded it. Ouch!
rekrunner wrote:
So your best example of an East German that took EPO is a West German busted for nandrolone?
That's two swings and two misses for you.
Subway Surfers wrote:
I seem to recall that Germans improved their national 5000m record during the EPO era to 12:54, this was well up and beyond the unlimited steriod and blood transfusion era times that preceded it. Ouch!
Do tell us, was there an epo test when he ran 12:54?
Another swing, another miss. Recall, (in response to an imposter) you accused me of missing "the East Germans doped and their athletes did phenomenal times". First it is plainly wrong -- it is not something I missed. I'm the one who brought up the example of the GDR as documented evidence of steroids working for women. Besides being plainly wrong, outside of confirming women responding to steroids, what is the relevance? Did the East Germans dope with EPO? You are avoiding that question. For all these allegations of me obfuscating and goalpost moving, this is what you are doing now. Apparently you also think it is not relevant, as you want to change the subject again to a West German who was busted for nandrolone two years after running 12:54. Even if you could establish that he took EPO (you can't), or that he even doped to run 12:54 (you can't), this will not make "East Germans doped" a relevant observation, and nothing can make "Rekrunner missed that" a true statement.
Subway Surfers wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
So your best example of an East German that took EPO is a West German busted for nandrolone?
That's two swings and two misses for you.
Do tell us, was there an epo test when he ran 12:54?
rekrunner wrote:
I have to laugh when you are trolled by an obvious imposter.
Why imposter? Similar username, talking obvious nonsense?
If it walks like a duck, ... but wait! Usually you call such observations coincidence, or lately, mythology.
Looks like you have forgotten your own shtick.
rekrunner wrote:
Another swing, another miss.
Recall, (in response to an imposter) you accused me of missing "the East Germans doped and their athletes did phenomenal times".
First it is plainly wrong -- it is not something I missed. I'm the one who brought up the example of the GDR as documented evidence of steroids working for women.
Why not for men (Schlenk was just discussed), and why only steroids (see Cierpinski)?
As for their overall success with men and running, just look how many German records from the wild 80s are still their NRs - including both sides of the dirty curtain. Others, like the East German marathon record, stood for decades but are not in that list anymore. Schildhauer's 10000 m record was only beaten once in 35 years, namely by drug cheat Baumann.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_records_in_athleticsLet me guess: to you, that looks like a coincidence, actually like several coincidences, right? To others, it shows that doping works for men too.
+1
Interesting info!
No difference in observing confirmed athletes using rEPO and/or blood doping who were "very elite athletes that performed well and set records" such as; Boulami, Ramzi, Mourhit, García, Estévez, Shobukhova, Jeptoo, Sumgong, etc. ?
It's an unblinded observational-cohort (Durussel et al.), which was published in a peer-reviewed journal. The authors note the limitations of the study but point out some key findings from the research.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26757800If you prefer some double-blinded RCTs that will make you feel better, here's some for your reading pleasure: Wilkerson et al., Birkeland et al., Parisotto et al.
Yes...clinically it's well known the the increase in Hct by rEPO is dose dependant (i.e. "the dose makes the poison").
And a Hct/performance correlation has been established reference the RBC infusion with 10k runners study (double-blind, placebo, crossover, experimental design):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573270From the comments:
"The improved performance was related to increased Hct, facilitating aerobic metabolism in the working muscles. The identical pattern of interaction between RBC reinfu-sion and order seen for Hct and 10-k race time effectively excludes a psycho-logical effect. Thus, only with elevation in Hct was the improvement in the 10-km running time."
Because the words don't fit in the context. In this case, I said GDR documented steroids in women, and "Lets Tell It Like It Is" basically agreed with me, and provided the link. He also "looked at the evidence", so I would not say "look at the evidence".
casual obsever wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
I have to laugh when you are trolled by an obvious imposter.
Why imposter? Similar username, talking obvious nonsense?
If it walks like a duck, ... but wait! Usually you call such observations coincidence, or lately, mythology.
Looks like you have forgotten your own shtick.
Because these men are very far down the list of all time top performers. This is not the case with the women in 800m and 1500m and sprint events and field events. That is no coincidence.
There is still a big difference. We don't have the same level of documented detail and control for "Boulami, Ramzi, Mourhit, García, Estévez, Shobukhova, Jeptoo, Sumgong, etc." While you try to poke a hole in the first example, I also gave a second example -- the IAAF testing testosterone on women to show an advantage in response to Caster Semenya. I think we must be working with different definitions of "observational study". Intervening with EPO makes it "experimental": "Cohort studies are observational. The researchers observe what happens without intervening. In experimental studies, such as RCTs, the scientists intervene, for example, by giving participants a new drug and assessing the outcomes." Looks like you missed giving a link to: "Wilkerson et al., Birkeland et al., Parisotto et al." Ah -- once again we see the blood transfusion study which lacked control subjects, that concludes the intervention caused all of the performance improvement.
Well they didn't use epo (though I can't rule it out), but every idiot knows that they were using transfusions in probably a highly sophisticated manor.
I think that you will also find in the archives of the old GDR, evidence that distance runners from 800m to the marathon were on a monitored diet of steriods.
rekrunner wrote:
So your best example of an East German that took EPO is a West German busted for nandrolone?
That's two swings and two misses for you.
Subway Surfers wrote:
I seem to recall that Germans improved their national 5000m record during the EPO era to 12:54, this was well up and beyond the unlimited steriod and blood transfusion era times that preceded it. Ouch!
Now let us assume that Baumann didn't use epo to magically run 12:54 as you (what's the word? Um fantasize, no) theorize. If Baumann was a user of autologous transfusions in combination with Nandrolone and he was subject to a primitive mid 1990s urine test. What would he get busted for? Um ?
In a sport called cricket if you bowl (pitch) too wide of the mark the batter gets a point and the bowler has to do it all again. ?