Kenyan 800m Word medallist Kipyegon Bett Suspended After Refusing Drugs Test

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As you can see for yourself, many people are asking me to explain things: casual obsever asking for my assumptions, and RFM faulting me for not giving scientific reasons -- sorry for you if the appropriate thing to do in civil societies is to provide a response, addressing criticisms that I'm dodging the question, or failing to give any reasons. I seem to be at fault for failing to give assumptions and reasons, and at fault for giving them. Getting back to your 4% analysis, you seem to have found yet another example of an athlete who got worse when taking EPO. Funny how often that pattern keeps coming up. Good research!

rekrunner wrote:

As you can see for yourself, many people are asking me to explain things: casual obsever asking for my assumptions, and RFM faulting me for not giving scientific reasons -- sorry for you if the appropriate thing to do in civil societies is to provide a response, addressing criticisms that I'm dodging the question, or failing to give any reasons.

I seem to be at fault for failing to give assumptions and reasons, and at fault for giving them.

Getting back to your 4% analysis, you seem to have found yet another example of an athlete who got worse when taking EPO. Funny how often that pattern keeps coming up. Good research!

C'mon man...you're at it again? Let's keep playing then: Kalalei seems to be yet another example of an athlete who got better when taking EPO. And yes, "funny" how often this pattern keeps coming up:

2015 2:14:31 Eindhoven (NED)11 OCT 2015

2016 2:11:47 Metz (FRA)09 OCT 2016

2017 2:12:17 Athina (GRE)12 NOV 2017

2018 2:10:44 Rotterdam (NED)08 APR 2018

*EPO positive from a June 2018 OOC test.

Hmmm...four (4) minutes improvement in the marathon...just as mentioned in the Malm et al study. ?

It's common for slow runners like Kalalei to improve, with or without EPO.

Marathoners On The Sauce wrote:

C'mon man...you're at it again? Let's keep playing then: Kalalei seems to be yet another example of an athlete who got better when taking EPO. And yes, "funny" how often this pattern keeps coming up:

2015 2:14:31 Eindhoven (NED)11 OCT 2015

2016 2:11:47 Metz (FRA)09 OCT 2016

2017 2:12:17 Athina (GRE)12 NOV 2017

2018 2:10:44 Rotterdam (NED)08 APR 2018

*EPO positive from a June 2018 OOC test.

Hmmm...four (4) minutes improvement in the marathon...just as mentioned in the Malm et al study. ?

rekrunner wrote:

It's common for slow runners like Kalalei to improve, with or without EPO.

☝️It's also common for fast runners to improve, with or without EPO.

m!ndweak wrote:

and no word on renato and his excuse for the bett gone wrong....must be mindweak huh?

1:43.76...PR

so i would say he was at 1:46-47 for 1-2yrs then made the big drop lets see

2018 1:46.27 Chorzów (POL) 08 JUN 2018

2017 1:44.04 Nairobi (KEN) 24 JUN 2017

2016 1:43.76 Berlin (GER) 03 SEP 2016

2015 1:44.55 Nairobi (KEN) 17 JUN 2015

2014 1:52.45 Nairobi (KEN) 25 JUN 2014

well 2018 seems interesting...his best is right during the HEAT of kiprops drama lol...looks like he is a 1:46 clean

"uh uh uh he was in the middle of an injury" im sure will be the excuse

I doubt if he could even run 1:46 clean more like 1:48-1:50

As for Renato, surely he is due to explain this one, we all know he reads these threads.

Subway Surfers wrote:

m!ndweak wrote:

and no word on renato and his excuse for the bett gone wrong....must be mindweak huh?

1:43.76...PR

so i would say he was at 1:46-47 for 1-2yrs then made the big drop lets see

2018 1:46.27 Chorzów (POL) 08 JUN 2018

2017 1:44.04 Nairobi (KEN) 24 JUN 2017

2016 1:43.76 Berlin (GER) 03 SEP 2016

2015 1:44.55 Nairobi (KEN) 17 JUN 2015

2014 1:52.45 Nairobi (KEN) 25 JUN 2014

well 2018 seems interesting...his best is right during the HEAT of kiprops drama lol...looks like he is a 1:46 clean

"uh uh uh he was in the middle of an injury" im sure will be the excuse

I doubt if he could even run 1:46 clean more like 1:48-1:50

As for Renato, surely he is due to explain this one, we all know he reads these threads.

Yeah...I can hardly wait for that one. I'm sure after he explains that Bett didn't need to dope to win the WC bronze, we'll get a tongue-lashing for how stupid we are for ever suggesting that EPO would help a top Kenyan run faster. ?

foxy loxy wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

It's common for slow runners like Kalalei to improve, with or without EPO.

☝️It's also common for fast runners to improve, with EPO.

Slightly adjusted

Mid-D Runners On The Sauce wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

I doubt if he could even run 1:46 clean more like 1:48-1:50

As for Renato, surely he is due to explain this one, we all know he reads these threads.

Yeah...I can hardly wait for that one. I'm sure after he explains that Bett didn't need to dope to win the WC bronze, we'll get a tongue-lashing for how stupid we are for ever suggesting that EPO would help a top Kenyan run faster. ?

Lolz as Mindweak would put it. I thought Kenyans don't need epo?

Subway Surfers wrote:

Mid-D Runners On The Sauce wrote:

Yeah...I can hardly wait for that one. I'm sure after he explains that Bett didn't need to dope to win the WC bronze, we'll get a tongue-lashing for how stupid we are for ever suggesting that EPO would help a top Kenyan run faster. ?

Lolz as Mindweak would put it. I thought Kenyans don't need epo?

Well...that's what Canova keeps saying but apparently the message isn't getting across very well. ?

Name the exercise physiologists you try to debate with and the reaction they have when you show them your accredited lab results.

Heck, give us a link to your studies.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Mid-D Runners On The Sauce wrote:

Yeah...I can hardly wait for that one. I'm sure after he explains that Bett didn't need to dope to win the WC bronze, we'll get a tongue-lashing for how stupid we are for ever suggesting that EPO would help a top Kenyan run faster. ?

Lolz as Mindweak would put it. I thought Kenyans don't need epo?

Cheat Canova says EPO will not work on East Africans. He has spent hundreds of hours typing away on his keyboard to convince people. He is a fraud and a cheat and knows damn well how effective EPO is

Yes they did and it's all observational with improvements seen in training & competition. There isn't any "blinded studies" with "control groups" and all that...just observational (review the paper and see for yourself) This is no different then what athletes, coaches & doping doctors have reported over the years with observations in improvement with EPO use.

Yeah...no kidding it "lacks controls" - it's an observational study...so do you want a reward or something for constantly pointing this out? It's funny that if the study were to show no improvement with EPO you would probably be preaching something all the lines of how can EPO work for elites if it doesn't even work for athletes who "don't run as fast as HS girls." Lol.

You don't know if it's "significant over-estimates." They're non-elites and could have easily reached their "physiological limited potential," and EPO allowed them to go beyond those genetic limitations, i.e., run faster than their physiology would allow clean.

It is well known that the effects of rEPO are dose-dependent. Both the Scots & Kenyans utilized the same identical low-dose schedule. The Scots had a baseline Hct of ~42 vs ~46 for the Kenyans at altitude. So, the Scots experienced a ~17% increase in Hct vs only ~7% for the Kenyans, who had a much higher baseline. The Kenyans would need to use a higher dose to match the 17% increase the Scots experienced at sea level given the significant differances in baseline Hcts.

This is all speculation. Why don't you look at the evidence like me instead of using mythology?

rekrunnr wrote:

This is all speculation. Why don't you look at the evidence like me instead of using mythology?

Looks to me like evidence, what JO and Rekrunner miss is that the East Germans doped and their athletes did phenomenal times. Take out the drugs and the phenomenal times disappeared. It really is that simple.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunnr wrote:

This is all speculation. Why don't you look at the evidence like me instead of using mythology?

Looks to me like evidence, what JO and Rekrunner miss is that the East Germans doped and their athletes did phenomenal times. Take out the drugs and the phenomenal times disappeared. It really is that simple.

They'll just point out that clean athletes can achieve those times.

You need to really grasp the level of their denial to understand what you're up against.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunnr wrote:

This is all speculation. Why don't you look at the evidence like me instead of using mythology?

Looks to me like evidence, what JO and Rekrunner miss is that the East Germans doped and their athletes did phenomenal times. Take out the drugs and the phenomenal times disappeared. It really is that simple.

They sure did! The gold medalist in the decathlon from Seoul is now admitting to doping! ?

But, as you know, that only proves that he would have gotten more points if he had competed clean.

Lolz. These doper apologists crack me up.

rekrunnr wrote:

This is all speculation. Why don't you look at the evidence like me instead of using mythology?

I've looked at the evidence many times from your EPO-performance thread and the Africans experienced significant improvement in performance post-90s. Do you think those big jumps in performance in a relatively short period of time was done on bread and water alone?